Black Sapote (Diospyros digyna) grafted onto American Persimmon (D.virginiana)

[edself65]

I was wondering if anyone has ever tried grafting Black Sapote (Diospyros digyna) onto American Persimmon (D.virginiana) rootstock?

Thanks,

Ed

[tabbydan]

I was wondering if anyone has ever tried grafting Black Sapote (Diospyros digyna) onto American Persimmon (D.virginiana) rootstock?

You want to do this to keep it smaller, or be more tollerant of soild conditions?  I don't think it will help much with cold tollerance.

Seems like an interesting experiment though.

[edself65]

I was hoping to increase cold tolerance and make them more tolerant to various types of soil.

Ed

[Jack, Nipomo]

Ed, I saw it done down in San Diego by an old time CRFG member.  We were there in the winter, the persimmon was dormant and bare of leaves, but the black sapote limb was green and happy.  It was only about 4 ft long, no fruit, but I was amazed and plan to try it on my persimmons.  Don't know how hardiness would be improved as it was growing in a relatively frost free area of San Diego anyway. So, not only is it possible, but been done. Wonder how a full tree would do grafted high up the trunk?   Jack

[edself65]

Thanks Jack! That is great information! Now that I am living in a colder climate I'm interested in testing things like this! So I guess that I will make a few grafts this year and test them for cold hardiness!

Thanks,

Ed

[BMc]

Black Sapotes usually fruit in winter-spring so they probably are not the best candidate for zone pushing as they need to hold fruit through the coldest times of the year, which is harder than simply keeping it alive. Though they may push flowers later if the earlier ones get burnt back and you'll get fruit in the fall. Some cvs like Bernicker fruit sporadically through the summer months but have the big crop in winter. Maher seems to hold fruit for a very long period before it ripens from late winter through early summer. Mossman pumps out a motherload of fruit through the back end of winter.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

No problem in Central FL pushing the zone limits of this tree.

It gets less credit than it deserves for being well adapted to our region (almost as cold hearty as a guava).

they've grown so big and fast near me, that they've had to be cut in half (40ft tree, to a 20ft tree)

In the wrong location, (like the NW side of a house, thats on the south east side of a giant field) this plant will suffer horribly when the temps dip below 32F (with proper dry windy conditions).

I'm not sure about it being a problem well outside of it's zone limits (say 9a), I think this tree could be fruited in a pot, and in a greenhouse up in Ohio.  Although the tree will be a beast, and grow into a 25 gal pot in about 4 yrs with proper care.

The trick will be maintaining warmth, and suppressing the tree's size, and encouraging lateral growth.

[tabbydan]

No problem in Central FL pushing the zone limits of this tree.

It gets less credit than it deserves for being well adapted to our region (almost as cold hearty as a guava).

they've grown so big and fast near me, that they've had to be cut in half (40ft tree, to a 20ft tree)

In the wrong location, (like the NW side of a house, thats on the south east side of a giant field) this plant will suffer horribly when the temps dip below 32F (with proper dry windy conditions).

I'm not sure about it being a problem well outside of it's zone limits (say 9a), I think this tree could be fruited in a pot, and in a greenhouse up in Ohio.  Although the tree will be a beast, and grow into a 25 gal pot in about 4 yrs with proper care.

The trick will be maintaining warmth, and suppressing the tree's size, and encouraging lateral growth.

D. virginiana should help with all of that.  It doesn't seem to grow as big or fast as black sapote.  And it should confer a few degrees more of cold hardiness (still below freezing the budwood probably won't last).  Sounds like a good experiment (even if some others have tried).

People in Fl who have to deal with others picking their fruits might want to do the opposite.  Graft american persimmon onto black sapote, grow it at the border, and watch theves with puckered in mouths.

[BMc]

No problem in Central FL pushing the zone limits of this tree.

It gets less credit than it deserves for being well adapted to our region (almost as cold hearty as a guava).

they've grown so big and fast near me, that they've had to be cut in half (40ft tree, to a 20ft tree)

In the wrong location, (like the NW side of a house, thats on the south east side of a giant field) this plant will suffer horribly when the temps dip below 32F (with proper dry windy conditions).

I'm not sure about it being a problem well outside of it's zone limits (say 9a), I think this tree could be fruited in a pot, and in a greenhouse up in Ohio.  Although the tree will be a beast, and grow into a 25 gal pot in about 4 yrs with proper care.

The trick will be maintaining warmth, and suppressing the tree's size, and encouraging lateral growth.

D. virginiana should help with all of that.  It doesn't seem to grow as big or fast as black sapote.  And it should confer a few degrees more of cold hardiness (still below freezing the budwood probably won't last).  Sounds like a good experiment (even if some others have tried).

People in Fl who have to deal with others picking their fruits might want to do the opposite.  Graft american persimmon onto black sapote, grow it at the border, and watch theves with puckered in mouths.

Or just graft on a bit of really bad mabolo. They will be warned off by the smell well before they get close enough to take anything.

[Recher]

its not the done thing to graft an evergreen onto a deciduous rootstock

[stressbaby]

I think this tree could be fruited in a pot, and in a greenhouse up in Ohio.  Although the tree will be a beast, and grow into a 25 gal pot in about 4 yrs with proper care.

I don't know about Ohio but thanks to Ethan I have one to try in Missouri.

Re: grafting to D. virginiana, one would wonder if the provenance of the D. virginiana would affect the likelihood of success.

As an aside, even after donating probably 1/3 of my crop to deer and raccoons, I put 90# of fruit from my one D. virginiana in the freezer this year.   

[00christian00]

Any update on this? Got myself some Lotus and Virginiana seedling to try, but I would like to hear how it's going from you guys.

[barath]

I'd be curious as well about long term compatibility of grafting something evergreen like black sapote on deciduous tree roots and whether that affects sap flow and fruit viability over the winter.

[So_Cal_Mike]

I wonder how it would take to Texas persimmon (Diospyros texana)?

Since it grows farther north it might help a little with zone pushers... also it is a smaller tree, maybe it would act as a dwarfing rootstock.

[Future]

I was also considering the reverse of the post given black Sapote is so drought tolerant.

[Recher]

Six years later..... did you try such grafting and what are results?

[funlul]

I'd be curious as well about long term compatibility of grafting something evergreen like black sapote on deciduous tree roots and whether that affects sap flow and fruit viability over the winter.

Quite curious here, as I have a fuyu persimmon tree to experiment with.

I have once grafted an evergreen variety of green jujube to my deciduous li jujube. It fruited heavily the next year. In the winter the whole tree is bare except this evergreen branch. I eventually removed it because 1) I did not like the green jujube's taste and 2) I was worried it would eventually hurt the rootstock for losing dormancy.

[SilverSapote]

Blog post on successful black sapote grafts onto American persimmon: Florida Fruit Geek - Chocolate pudding fruit successfully grafted onto American persimmon

I wonder how it would take to Texas persimmon (Diospyros texana)?

Since it grows farther north it might help a little with zone pushers... also it is a smaller tree, maybe it would act as a dwarfing rootstock.

I'm interested in this one as well. Texas persimmons are very drought and heat tolerant.