Author Topic: Post Pics of Your GRAFTS, and Troubleshoot HERE!  (Read 217607 times)

Tim

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1550
    • USA, Escondido, CA 92027, zone 9b
    • View Profile
Post Pics of Your GRAFTS, and Troubleshoot HERE!
« on: February 01, 2012, 08:39:55 PM »
Jeff, If you don't mind I'd like to start this new thread here with an old post of yours on GW.  I found your post to be very informative & helpful.  Hope it helps other members here as well. 

Other members with extensive grafting experience and superior skills, please feel free to share your grafting expertise & techniques with the rest of us noobs  ;D

If you can graft then you can just topwork the trees you don't like. The basic technique is simple:
Step 0) Hack the tree back to about 3 or 4 feet tall. For the mango, you want to do this around May.
Step 1) Wait until new sprouts come out. When they are about pencil thickness, select the 2 or 3 shoots that you want to graft. I try to find ones that are evenly spaced out.
Step 2) Side veneer graft the shoots and cover with parafilm.
Step 3) The scions should break through the parafilm in 3 to 4 weeks. Once they harden off, cut off the top of the 'rootstock', leaving just the scion (as you would a traditional potted side veneer graft).
Step 4) Gradually start eliminating the ungrafted sprouts, forcing all of the tree's energy into the newly grafted sciones.
Step 5) Tip the new growth on the scions for each growth spurt (cut like a 1/2 inch below the tip). Tipping helps to calm the new growth down and will allow your newly topworked tree to come back into production quicker. Growth spurts will come fast and furious, so you'll have to be tipping every 3 weeks or so.

Most people freak when you do this sort of thing, but the mango tree has no problem with it. Also, since the tree has an established root system and a thick trunk with good carbohydrate reserves, it will grow extremely rapidly.
Tim

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4677
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 11:35:48 PM »
:-) It's a much better idea to top-work an unwanted tree rather than yank it and replant. You can also top-work with more than one cultivar. I'm currently top-working a ~5 year old carrie to Sweet Tart + Harvest Moon. I'll post the pic's as it develops.
Jeff  :-)

TropicalFruitHunters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1302
    • USA, Columbus, OH, xxxxx Zone 5b
    • View Profile
    • Tropical Fruit Hunters
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 08:52:04 AM »
Hmmmm...I seem to have heard that option recently!  Jeff, is there any reason why you wait for the tree to sprout and graft onto those instead of grafting the scions directly to the sawn off branch...much like we do with apples?  a sort of wedge graft where a "V" is notched out at the cut into the wood.  The scion is cut in a wedge and trimmed to fit.  It is then squeezed into the cut until it is very tight with cambiums matched. 

Here's a video demonstrating this technique.  It's very interesting.  I believe this is Axel from the Cloudforest forum.  He is a master grafter.
Top Working an Old Apple tree

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4677
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 11:10:31 AM »
I haven't had success doing it that way. If you wait for it to sprout, success is in the near-100% range.

Jeff
Jeff  :-)

Jacob13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
  • Southern California - Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Post Pics of Your GRAFTS, and Troubleshoot HERE!
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 08:13:45 PM »
Hello Friends,

I got some seeds from Jeff (Thank You) about a year ago, after I was sold what I thought was a "Genova Red", but ended up being some kind of other Annona.  I now have 4 ilama 'Fairchild' Seedlings that are about 6" - 8" inches tall.  They have been very slow growing, but hopefully as it warms up they will start to grow more quickly.  They all look like that are about to push new growth.

I am going to try and graft some "Genova Red" scions to my unknown Annona in the next few days.  Any suggestions?

- Jacob
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 02:07:52 PM by murahilin »

Guanabanus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3004
  • SE Palm Beach County, East of I-95, Elevation 18'
    • USA, Florida, Boynton Beach, 33435, Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Grafting illama question
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 09:52:46 PM »
If doing a top cleft, use a scion slightly thicker than the roostock, since you will have a V-cut going into a slit.
Har

Tim

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1550
    • USA, Escondido, CA 92027, zone 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 12:08:22 PM »
Has anyone had real life experience with t-budding mango?  Jeff, surely you must have tried this yes?
Tim

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4677
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 01:28:06 PM »
T-budding is a great propagation technique for the mango. Unfortunately, it's the 'secret sauce' for a lot of growers, so the chances of anybody divulging the methods for success to this technique are slim :-). We also have a better climate for grafting the mango here in South Florida, so the techniques which are successful here may not be successful in California.

For top-working, side veneer works phenomenally well.

Jeff

Has anyone had real life experience with t-budding mango?  Jeff, surely you must have tried this yes?
Jeff  :-)

Tropicalgrower89

  • Zone 10b, Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1569
    • Pembroke Pines, FL, 33024, 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 01:34:38 PM »
:-) It's a much better idea to top-work an unwanted tree rather than yank it and replant. You can also top-work with more than one cultivar. I'm currently top-working a ~5 year old carrie to Sweet Tart + Harvest Moon. I'll post the pic's as it develops.

Looking forward to seeing the pics.  :)


Alexi

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12542
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 02:19:17 PM »
Hmmmm...I seem to have heard that option recently!  Jeff, is there any reason why you wait for the tree to sprout and graft onto those instead of grafting the scions directly to the sawn off branch...much like we do with apples?  a sort of wedge graft where a "V" is notched out at the cut into the wood.  The scion is cut in a wedge and trimmed to fit.  It is then squeezed into the cut until it is very tight with cambiums matched. 

Here's a video demonstrating this technique.  It's very interesting.  I believe this is Axel from the Cloudforest forum.  He is a master grafter.


OJ,

this video is noice, I appreciate the link.  The quality of the video is good, and I can see everything clearly...kudos to the filmer and the grafter.

I always thought you top worked a tree by allowing it to have shoots, and grafting onto those shoots. Maybe certain trees prefer this treatment, maybe not.  I want to top work one of the huge seedling mangoes by me. 

Thanks for sharing.

www.FlyingFoxFruits.com

www.PLINIAS.com

https://www.ebay.com/usr/flyingfoxfruits

www.youtube.com/FlyingFoxFruits

I disabled the forum's personal messaging system, please send an email to contact me, FlyingFoxFruits@gmail.com

nullzero

  • Zone 10a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3676
    • View Profile
Re: Grafting / Topworking mature trees
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 02:29:29 PM »
A guide to "T" shield budding for mangoes;

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/B-20.pdf

Going to add this link to the book section
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

behlgarden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
    • CA, Zone 10 B
    • View Profile
    • LED Bulbs for Landscape Lighting
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 04:32:11 PM »
I would love to find out too! I am waiting for my grafts to take. Although I did not cover the scion with platic because here in So. Cal if its sunny the temp inside the bag could hit over 100.  Do I need to cover the scion with plastic bag?

HMHausman

  • Mod Emeritus
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3366
    • USA, Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida, Zone 10B
    • View Profile
    • Pines Ticket Defense, LLC
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 05:42:16 PM »
With mangoes this hasn't happened to me much.  But with annona, especially recent cherimoya grafts I have had buds from the scion push only to die off immediately when they burst through the parafilm I wasn't sure why that was. Murahilin told me that Jeff told him that if an annona graft pushes immediately it is going to always die...or words to that effect.  A sucessful annona graft will be dormant until the scion heals onto  the rootstock and then it pushes when it breaks dormancy.  has anyone else found this to be true?

Harry
Harry
Fort Lauderdale, FL 
USA

behlgarden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
    • CA, Zone 10 B
    • View Profile
    • LED Bulbs for Landscape Lighting
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 05:47:25 PM »
Harry, I will have an answer soon, I know Greg grafted scions that Joe sent him and mysef. His grafts was instant success within a week, mine are still dormant. I see my tree starting to push for growth after i pruned it heavily. It remains to be seen of the main branch where I got Scions get the push as well. I can tell that juices are flowing in my tree right now so best chance of graft on Cherimoya for my plant me be right now.

behlgarden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
    • CA, Zone 10 B
    • View Profile
    • LED Bulbs for Landscape Lighting
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 05:49:20 PM »
oh, forgot to mention, even the cut branches that are sitting on the ground are pushing for growth, it could be that the tree was ready for new growth and branches are loaded with sap, no wonder cut wood on ground is growing as well. I found it ammusing and said to myself that if this branch can push for growth, scions are a high probability

amrkhalido

  • Zone 10, Egypt
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 05:50:38 PM »
i wish to know that as well ,, as i am intending to graft jackfruits ,, and i don't want to loose the scions

Amr

ericalynne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
    • United States of America, Florida, Venus, 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 06:49:40 PM »
I had the same thing happen with mulberry. I got some budwood from F&S park and also took a grafting class there. I was so proud! The grafts took perfectly and so quickly! The leaves on the budwood swelled (is swelled a word?) and leaves pushed out and it was beautiful And then it all died completely. I did not have it wrapped in plastic. I was using parafilm. I haven't tried grafting since. :-(

Erica

Tim

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1550
    • USA, Escondido, CA 92027, zone 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 09:56:19 PM »
swelled or swollen .... same difference because I understood what you meant  ;D ;D ;D
Tim

Guanabanus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3004
  • SE Palm Beach County, East of I-95, Elevation 18'
    • USA, Florida, Boynton Beach, 33435, Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 10:55:25 PM »
You are right Behl!

Annona branches pruned off and thrown on the ground in the winter will bud out in the spring--- so your having grafted some of it can end up being entirely irrelevant.

All the reasons given by Adam are also valid.

There is another reason often overlooked--- expectations of magic  --- if the roostock doesn't have a big fat seed full of stored up food, and you go and cut all the leaves off the roostock, what is the poor thing going to live off.  [And remember, fertilizer is not "plant food", it is just nutritional mineral supplements, none of which are an edible source of energy (carbohydrates, lipids, or proteins.]  Roots starve first, or get too weak to fend off rots.
Har

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4677
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2012, 12:04:53 PM »
I've only had success grafting annonas after April, well after bud break and when the tree is in vigorous growth flush. After around September, success tapers off again. I'm not entirely sure why other than perhaps the dormancy translates into lack of cambium growth.

Loquat will commonly push and then die if you leave it without a source of energy (ie, leaves).

With mangoes this hasn't happened to me much.  But with annona, especially recent cherimoya grafts I have had buds from the scion push only to die off immediately when they burst through the parafilm I wasn't sure why that was. Murahilin told me that Jeff told him that if an annona graft pushes immediately it is going to always die...or words to that effect.  A sucessful annona graft will be dormant until the scion heals onto  the rootstock and then it pushes when it breaks dormancy.  has anyone else found this to be true?

Harry
Jeff  :-)

behlgarden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
    • CA, Zone 10 B
    • View Profile
    • LED Bulbs for Landscape Lighting
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2012, 12:11:35 PM »
In my case I am using major branches of matured tree, that has leaves on other branches, so it sort of nullifies the issue of energy to plant. It would be interesting to see what Greg gets out of his recent successful grafts in the green house.

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12542
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 01:21:01 PM »
That funny, I have great success grafting annonas before the leaves emerge, and I've already grafted 10 this year, almost all have taken and are growing vigorously.



I've only had success grafting annonas after April, well after bud break and when the tree is in vigorous growth flush. After around September, success tapers off again. I'm not entirely sure why other than perhaps the dormancy translates into lack of cambium growth.

Loquat will commonly push and then die if you leave it without a source of energy (ie, leaves).



www.FlyingFoxFruits.com

www.PLINIAS.com

https://www.ebay.com/usr/flyingfoxfruits

www.youtube.com/FlyingFoxFruits

I disabled the forum's personal messaging system, please send an email to contact me, FlyingFoxFruits@gmail.com

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4677
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2012, 01:56:26 PM »
Interesting. What species and what type of graft are you using?

All grafts performed in the early spring (late-march) pushed and then died after 2 months according to this study by Carl Campbell and Pablo Lara. The rest did well. That has been my experience.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 02:49:09 PM by Cookie Monster »
Jeff  :-)

Cookie Monster

  • Broward, FL Zone 10b
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4677
  • Eye like mangoes
    • Tamarac, FL, 33321, 10B
    • View Profile
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 05:28:36 PM »
OK, I see what you did. You were able to harvest budwood before the leaves fell off. Good work.

Atemoya mostly, but have grafted some squamosa, reticulata and rollinia, and a few other species this year with good results so far...if they die out of no where I will let you know.

Here is some pics young graftsman.

4826 atemoya, cleft.  Bagged entire plant to keep scion from desiccating.  Now the cats out of the bag, and growing well...I haven't taken the tape off yet around the union.  Do you think I'm gumping the jun, by saying these grafts have taken?



Graft union of plant above



Nuathong, same as above, but I removed the bag early, damaging the fully formed leaves...so removed the fully formed leaves and I put it in shade, and its recovering nicely with new growth still coming.  Now it can handle fuller sun.




Graft union of plant above




These two are examples of the easiest way I know how to graft, but I do have some veneer grafts on big trees, in pots, that have lost all of their leaves, and some with leaves....the real key is timing when to cut the scion, and selecting a good scion.
Jeff  :-)

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12542
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: Grafts that push new leaves, and then suddenly drop leaves!
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 05:58:08 PM »
The scions I took were from dormant branches, about to leaf out for the first time this year.  So leafless sticks were attached to rootstocks...am I confusing u? or am I confused?  :-\ :-[ ;D

OK, I see what you did. You were able to harvest budwood before the leaves fell off. Good work.

www.FlyingFoxFruits.com

www.PLINIAS.com

https://www.ebay.com/usr/flyingfoxfruits

www.youtube.com/FlyingFoxFruits

I disabled the forum's personal messaging system, please send an email to contact me, FlyingFoxFruits@gmail.com

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk