Author Topic: Not enough Durian Discussion  (Read 1945 times)

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2021, 04:21:15 PM »
I have seen a few small one fruiting and yes Chanee would be a good option. If planted in full sun and trimmed to ensure low branching you can totally attack it when at say 7m or 8m it flower for the first time and bring it down to size. Storm shortened trees can fruit while quite shor

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2021, 08:49:57 AM »
Mike whatís the rationale behind that? Does topping them earlier slow their maturation ? I have half a dozen grafts at varying stages of maturity in a suburban garden like you. Iím planning on keeping them on the small side for space and cyclone resilience. The seedling trees got huge before they first flowered - I wonít be able to do that with the others.
Cheers Jim

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2021, 11:39:41 AM »
I think the key to shaping durian without retarding the onset of production is to incrementally top and open space within the tree, cutting as little as possible at a time.  Force the branches to grow out, giving them more light and air, perhaps pruning lightly every 3 months instead of heavier pruning once or twice a year.  Actually, we probably top twice a year but continually open the inside.
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2021, 11:40:56 PM »
I think the key to shaping durian without retarding the onset of production is to incrementally top and open space within the tree, cutting as little as possible at a time.  Force the branches to grow out, giving them more light and air, perhaps pruning lightly every 3 months instead of heavier pruning once or twice a year.  Actually, we probably top twice a year but continually open the inside.
Peter

Thanks for sharing that. FLI. How much do you open the inside of the tree? and does the branches inside get sun burnt? Would love to see a photo of one tree pruned like this as comparisson with other structures.

Jim, maybe the tree girth is more important then height for Durian tree maturity? or maybe it's a number of dry period cycles? Anyone know?
Would you say they got heigher or shorter then 10m before they flowered?

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2021, 03:06:03 PM »






So in the top photo you see a 25 year old tree that has been shaped into a rough pyramid. We want horizontal branches and we try to remove the clutter and congestion inside the scaffold, spacing the branches and removing interior branch lets. In the bottom photo you see the same tree looking up inside. Because of the angle the branches look closer together than they actually are.
When I say open up the inside Iím not really exposing any bare branches to much sunlight, Iím just creating open space inside the tree. 
The second photo is a six to seven year old tree that is a work in progress. We have topped her a few times and stragetically removed crowded branches with more to come. In the interior we are nipping off branchlets. Any branch that tries to grow up at much of an angle we either eliminate, tie horizontal, or cut it where it angles up, trying to encourage lateral growth.
This tree is at about the point where we wonít top it any longer. For me, the topping is more of a shaping tool to get the lower branches like I want them. The overall height doesnít worry me too much with durian. Thatís a completely different strategy than the one I employ for artocarpus and porterŪa, etc.
Peter

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2021, 08:16:52 PM »


Better late than never and my gumpun tree has late season fruit. They are big on a small tree with mostly shrivelled seeds so have great flesh yield.The fruit are quite similar to Monthong.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #81 on: April 05, 2021, 03:58:32 AM »


Better late than never and my gumpun tree has late season fruit. They are big on a small tree with mostly shrivelled seeds so have great flesh yield.The fruit are quite similar to Monthong.

Nice big sections to eat. Looks good! What country does that cultivar originate in?
Oscar

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2021, 04:56:51 AM »
I will copy a local evaluation from about 30 years ago. They have always been ranked highly here and have close to the highest flesh yield.

"GUMPUN (Aust. Montong)   Large-v.large   Heart-shaped   Green   Dark yellow flesh   Thick 36% yield    Good flavour, sweet, mild, rich   Fine, very firm, smooth   Aborted seeds. High yield. Can be picked early. Late season. Sensitive to cold weather. Vigorous"   

jimreevescairns

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2021, 08:38:02 AM »
Nice ! How long did it take to fruit ? My gumpun (graft) a few years old now but still spindly only 2m tall. Only getting morning and early afternoon sun.
Red clay soil. Interested to know how others fertilise their young durians - i probably dontvferrilize mine enough and the rain must leach a lot of nutrients. Few handfuls of chicken pellets a few times a year so far. Going to put crusher dust in with the mulch too to try and get more minerals into the soil. Several of the grafts have quite pale leaves with little yellow and brown patches on them.

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2021, 09:20:19 AM »
That Gumpun sounds great!

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2021, 11:14:02 AM »
Durian growers follow a regimen of coordinated feeding.  Interestingly, in Malaysia they avoid manures, figuring they are a risk for root issues.  We use manures though as we avoid conventional NPK.
Lots of compost, microorganisms.  Apply a foliar of Ca Bo every two weeks on young trees.  Amino acid preparations for root stimulation.  Get your ph to 6.
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2021, 07:21:54 PM »

This tree is at about the point where we wonít top it any longer.

Great images and caption! Looks like you got a branch stairway to the durian heaven :D

So I assume you didn't cut a lot when you topped the tree, just the "apex" crown kinda.

So you will let that tree grow taller now? As you said it was a tool to get the lower laterals to where you want them.

So you don't have an issue with flying animals wanting a pice of the durian?
Cookatoos love durian here so I will have to bag them (they go for low hanging fruit also), and a stairway is prefered when climbing. But would have to keep the tree lower to reduce the amount of climbing so the topping would be a lifelong process here.

Peter, have you seen the growth of a durian tree in PH 7?
7 is balance (14\2=7), and decomposted woodchips is close to or 7 which would be the what the absolute topsoil would be made of in it's native range.
subsoil ph will be different.

That's a beautiful fruit Mike! Have tried them and they are great!

Jim, when I put a tiny dripper 2L/h and wood (chips, trunks etc) around some durian seedlings they stared to grow very vigourously compared to before. One seedling is 2,3m after 1 year, planted the seed direct in ground. With the dripp they don't get stunted in the dry any more but mulch and compost only could work, I just can't get enough of that here and it's hard to "chop and drop mulch" enough around hundreds of tree's alone.


Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2021, 07:48:59 PM »
Jim I think it took around 6 years for the grafted tree to produce its first fruit but it could be 7.I just use NPK of around 10;2;4 infrequently and a bit of dolomite now and then.Sometimes I spread some blood and bone or dynamic lifter around the durians.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2021, 09:55:45 PM »
great discussion happening here, I want to throw another question out there. Is anyone putting any chemicals on the tree where cuts are being made to top/shape the trees?  I thought this might be an easy way for phytophora to enter?

I plan on buying a few litres on phos 600 and apply via foliar spray for phytophora and wondering what i can use to seal pruning cuts?

Cassowary where abouts in NQ are you based?

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2021, 10:13:14 PM »
Most of the soils in wet areas of CR are acidic.  I do consultations where the ph is 4.8-5.2. So I tell people to try and get 6 somehow, itís a lot of Ca!  My soil is 6.1. Where I have inquired in Malaysia itís been about 6.5. Durian, like avocado is sensitive to very acidic soil so I wouldnít ignore ph.
In topping I have taken off more than the very tip, depending.  I like to pick a likely new leader and cut just above it.  Ideally there are branches with a nice spread just below that.  If you need to have good access to every fruit I could understand not letting the tree go higher than 10m. 
We have more insect damage than birds on durian.  Culling fruit is a good practice that we need to improve on. 
My oldest tree is 30m with no lower branches.  We feed it a bit with mulch, manure, Ca, and collect the fruits.  They fall from 20-30m and donít seem to get damaged.  Certainly more than 250kg per harvest.
Peter

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2021, 10:16:51 PM »
Sealing cuts is probably a good idea but we donít bother when pruning and it hasnít been an issue.  On the other hand, if I find damage then we often seal with a mixture of calcium carbonate and copper sulfate moistened with an adherent.
Peter

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2021, 11:26:05 PM »
My pH is around 5.6. Which is pretty standard for highly weathered metamorphic parent material in the tropics. Would be nice to have Basaltic krasnozem or alluvial like some locals, Granite derived soils and coastal sands have their own issues. durians don't mind a generous clay content but are not fans of laterite, hydroscopic soils and cracking vertisols like you get inland. When you use N fertlisers that acidify it is good to lime of dolomite the area now and then. Durians seem to enjoy soils around 6 pH best.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2021, 11:36:20 PM »
Mike Im not going to pretend to understand any of the soil terms you are talking about, my property is an ex cane field the soil where the cane was is extremely dense red clay.  Close to the creek it is a more black softer soil.  So far all my fruit trees seem happy in this clay but im yet to plant durian out. Hopefully next week.

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2021, 11:42:54 PM »
If you have some alluvial from the creek and are in the colluvial zone of those granite mountains behind you then great. You know Troppo is the name for a tropical heat induced madness coined in northern Australia during WW2. After months of relentless het and humidity some people go nuts with aggression sleeplessness etc.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #94 on: April 06, 2021, 11:45:16 PM »
If you have some alluvial from the creek and are in the colluvial zone of those granite mountains behind you then great. You know Troppo is the name for a tropical heat induced madness coined in northern Australia during WW2. After months of relentless het and humidity some people go nuts with aggression sleeplessness etc.

Well hows that my wife would say i have this madness regardless of the temperature.

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2021, 10:07:45 PM »
great discussion happening here, I want to throw another question out there. Is anyone putting any chemicals on the tree where cuts are being made to top/shape the trees?  I thought this might be an easy way for phytophora to enter?

I plan on buying a few litres on phos 600 and apply via foliar spray for phytophora and wondering what i can use to seal pruning cuts?

Cassowary where abouts in NQ are you based?

The people I know, caring for many durian tree's don't cover the cut, one I know of prune's specifically in the dry season beause he says it's working for him. He mostly got seedlings and haven't got much rotroot, he's problem is more to keep the soil moist in the dry (same as for me).

I know this sounds counterintuivite but i'v had great results with covering tree wounds with plasticwrap. (mango, durian, rambutan). If I take two fairly similar wounds (horizontal tears/cross cuts) and wrap one and leave the other one alone, the one covered in plastic closes faster and more neatly compared to the other one (from what i'v seen). Haven't had fungus problem inside the plastic and I am doing this becuase I want the environment directly around the wound to be humid. I might put up comparative images in the future when i'v tried more. Not recommending this at this moment since I am just experimenting.

Above Mossman, bellow the sun.

My pH is around 5.6. Which is pretty standard for highly weathered metamorphic parent material in the tropics. Would be nice to have Basaltic krasnozem or alluvial like some locals, Granite derived soils and coastal sands have their own issues. durians don't mind a generous clay content but are not fans of laterite, hydroscopic soils and cracking vertisols like you get inland. When you use N fertlisers that acidify it is good to lime of dolomite the area now and then. Durians seem to enjoy soils around 6 pH best.

Would say I got around the same avarage ph in the eluviated horizon, but I don't think durian put a large percentage of feeder roots in there if there's a good humus layer above, when I uncover the outmost top leaflitter and mulch there's a lot of plumb root hairs and they even go up in logs about 20 cm heigh.  This would be the humus layer or organic layer. So for me it seams they like a top layer with PH closer to 7 then 6.

"Most of the soils in wet areas of CR are acidic.  I do consultations where the ph is 4.8-5.2. So I tell people to try and get 6 somehow, itís a lot of Ca!  My soil is 6.1. Where I have inquired in Malaysia itís been about 6.5. Durian"

Maybe the organic layer is greater in absolute height where it was measured in Malaysia and thus closer to ph 7. And beacuse if that layer is heigher they would have picked up less of the eluviated horizon for their test, and if tested with a probe it would have penetrated less of that layer to.

Decompossed arborist mulch (wood and leaf) will be very close to ph 7, wood and leaf (plus fruit) is what's drop to the ground in a forest and for me it seams durian really like that forest floor type of earth/soil structure where the eluviated ph is usually bellow or closer to 6 (from your test data and my own tests here). So instead of adding Calcium to increase that layers ph it seams to me to be more benefical to add arborist mulch/ logs/leafs etc to create a greater humus layer which is closer to ph 7.

I am not saying adding Calcium to create close to 7 PH, I don't know how that would turn out, maybe not well. I only know what arborist mulch and forest litter does when added on top of the eluviated layer.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2021, 11:23:16 PM »
Nice commentary.
Interesting about treating wounds with plastic. I think weíre not as dry here.
My ph was not tested by a probe but by taking a subgrade sample that was analysed in a lab.
I agree completely with mulching and I teach it enthusiastically.  I take students/clients and we shift the leaf litter aside to witness activity of microorganisms and find the feeding root tips where the biomass comes in contact with the clay.
When I say to work towards a ph of 6 itís perhaps a little abstract and one single factor that is measurable in the quest to improve the soil for something like durian. The same goes for avocados which are widely planted here and have issues with acidic soil.
Our farm maintains corridors of rainforest between mixed orchard areas. We go into the forest, find old fallen trees and bring that material out and spread it under our fruit trees, especially durians. We also use manures, Ca, rock phosphate in a band around the drip line. We apply lab produced microorganisms to the biomass every 2 weeks if itís not dry.
Peter

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #97 on: April 09, 2021, 02:53:13 AM »
Nice commentary.
Interesting about treating wounds with plastic. I think weíre not as dry here.
My ph was not tested by a probe but by taking a subgrade sample that was analysed in a lab.
I agree completely with mulching and I teach it enthusiastically.  I take students/clients and we shift the leaf litter aside to witness activity of microorganisms and find the feeding root tips where the biomass comes in contact with the clay.
When I say to work towards a ph of 6 itís perhaps a little abstract and one single factor that is measurable in the quest to improve the soil for something like durian. The same goes for avocados which are widely planted here and have issues with acidic soil.
Our farm maintains corridors of rainforest between mixed orchard areas. We go into the forest, find old fallen trees and bring that material out and spread it under our fruit trees, especially durians. We also use manures, Ca, rock phosphate in a band around the drip line. We apply lab produced microorganisms to the biomass every 2 weeks if itís not dry.
Peter

subgrade sample, have you tested PH of the biomass layer just above the clay? I will try and get that done with a lab as comparison for the eluviated layer (only done probe).
What a great use of a very local resource. And sustainable since the forest re-generates itself.

I abandoned the idea of applying Mycorrhiza etc. under the established fruit trees since it looked like there was a lot of activity anyway (could see fungus spreading where there where OM). Do you apply that regularly to encourage faster decomposition of the OM or for other reasons? I thought from my own reasoning that maybe the microbiome is already saturated and applying more then once (innoculation) would not benefit the tree much. When I plant tree's in the disturbed areas where grass where growing I try to put a bit of biomass from under one of the established tree's in the hole as to give a microbiome innoculation. But then I don't add any micro. org. to the OM that I cover the soil with. You got me asking myself, would adding micro. org. to the top layer regularly like you do benefit the small durians growing in old guniegrass fields?

Mike T

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2021, 04:20:28 AM »


Spray wounds and trees should be in well drained places and mulch is present. Make sure enough P in fertlisers and even resort to phosphonate if you have to.

sunny

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Re: Not enough Durian Discussion
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2021, 05:38:55 AM »
According to youtube video comments Jackfruit is King over Durian but then I suspect the reason being many have yet to try Durian or a Excellent variety of Durian that would make them rate it higher.

Well according to Thai marketprices for Durian and Jackfruit the Durian is the absolute winner with 500us$ for a top notch durian versus maybe 50us$ for the best jackfruit.

And for jackfruit most vendors have inferiour fruit for sale, they don't taste anything like the best ones but they all are the same price. I only eat jackfruit from 1 vendor who always has excellent quality or she won't even sell jackfruit. No idea why this vendor always has far better fruit than all the other ones, they might have their own orchard.

And nope, we don't need the whole world to eat jackfruit or durian. Since Thailand exports durians the prices are higher and the fruits smaller. Now it's almost impossible to find a big durian in Thailand cause the chinese have bought ALL the big ones. Same goes for mangosteen.

And for durian it freezes very well, they should just blend the durian flesh, put it in icecream bowls and export it. That's how i make durian icecream, i buy the soft ones (which the Thai don't like) for half price and blend them all with a tiny bit of salt, nothing else. That's perfect icecream and tastes exactly the same as the overripe durians..mind you, for a Thai EVERY tree fallen durian is overripe, they like them a tiny bit underripe while they are still crunchy on the outside and soft inside.