Author Topic: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?  (Read 3676 times)

Peep

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The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« on: August 21, 2022, 08:46:25 AM »
Last time I was asking about satsuma's, now the eremo's.

From what I have gathered there is:

1. Eremorange (-14°C)
2. Eremolemon Coachella (-12°C)
3. Eremomandarin (-?°C)
4. Citrangeremo (-15°C)
5. Citrus glauca x shekwasha (-?°C)

- Eremorange is the most popular, so I expect it to be good and it has good cold resistance, so I will add this to my collection

- Eremolemon is also reasonably popular, not as cold hardy, but because lemons overal aren't very cold hardy, I still think it is interesting to have (I have this one already).

- Citrangeremo, some information about it on the internet, but I did not find much about fruit quality or how it compares to Eremorange. It could be a little more cold hardy due to the poncirus genetics, but I'm wondering if it's worth it if Eremorange has better taste.

- Eremomandarin I haven't found much about it...

- Citrus glauca x shekwasha, I think this is also considered an eremomandarin. Not much information, especially about fruit quality. Adavo has it.


Any people here that have some experience with these? I could just get all of them for my collection, but I will already have so many varieties that I would rather preemptively remove some, instead of waiting until I can test and taste them all.

Here's a picture of my Eremolemon Coachella on poncirus. I have another one from Lenzi on carrizo, which I took a scion from and grafted on poncirus


Perplexed

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« Last Edit: August 21, 2022, 09:54:03 AM by Perplexed »

SoCal2warm

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2022, 01:27:17 AM »
Let me first say I am not expert in this specific area, but from what information I have found, I believe that Citrus glauca is only about equal in cold tolerance to Satsuma mandarin. (Even though Satsuma mandarin can be rather cold tolerant in some situations)
This makes me skeptical that Eremo- hybrids with ordinary citrus fruit species could be as cold tolerant as claimed.

I do know that Citrus glauca is very drought tolerant, so that might potentially resist desiccating cold winter winds, and perhaps it enables the root systems to sprout back.

Of course, the person who made the opening post lives in climate zone 8b, so I am sure all sorts of only marginal hardy citrus varieties could survive there. Even a Satsuma mandarin might perhaps survive for him if planted in a protected spot. If he lived in 8a, it would be very much more difficult, and zone 7 nearly impossible.

It should also be noted that there is a big difference between zone 8 in the US South versus zone 8 in Europe. (Given the same climate zone number, I think the South is easier to grow in most years, due to the longer growing season and greater warmth)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 01:34:30 AM by SoCal2warm »

Florian

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2022, 04:01:51 AM »
I have a glauca x Shekwasha and a Citrangeremo. I have had them in pots for a few years. The glauca x Shekwasha has been flowering profusely but until now has never fruited. The Citrangeremo hasn't even flowered yet. So, this spring I decided to plant out the Citrangeremo and see what happens. I hope the change of environment might prompt it to flower. Winter-wise, we would probably be in zone 7b but recent winters have been mostly 8a to 9a, so I don't know when I will be able to put it to a real test. Anyway, if it dies, it dies and the glauca x shekwasha will be next.

Also, I consider those hardiness ratings (-14 C) as mere indications. They are often given by sellers or people who live somewhere those temperatures only last a short time and then rise above 0 C the next day.

Here's a pic:

« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 04:07:28 AM by Florian »

Peep

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2022, 01:52:36 PM »
@Perplexed

Interesting, on the website from Lenzi, where I bought it from, it is said to be a cross with Meyer. EDIT: In the book from Olivier Biggio he also writes it's a cross with "citronnier" (lemon).

@SoCal2warm

I haven't looked into it yet, but I also don't really understand where the cold hardiness comes from in these hybrids. Except for maybe the citrange and shekwasha cross.

@Florian

I also just use the temperature numbers as indications to rank different varieties. For example it tells me Eremolemon is less hardy than Eremorange. It seems that many people, not just you, who have the citrangeremo and shekwasha cross have trouble getting them to be productive.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 05:03:46 PM by Peep »

Peep

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2022, 06:32:56 PM »
A little more information from Olivier Biggio, who replied on this question on facebook:

Quote
- Olivier: Eremolemon and eremorange make excellent jams. Citrangeremo is a good mouth fruit

        - Me: Thanks for the feedback, do you also have an opinion on the eremomandarin(s)?

                  - Olivier: Jams. I prefer eremorange

This is translated from French.
 
So it could be that Eremomandarin is a bit similar to Eremorange, but not as good. But taste is subjective and he did not say that Eremomandarin is bad.
I am intrigued by Citrageremo being better to eat fresh than Eremomandarin, because it has Poncirus in the genetics.

From Agrumes De Provance (translated):

Eremorange:
Quote
This selection of eremorange gives excellent quality fruit. In jam or candied fruit, its taste of mandarin, orange and harlequin English candy make this citrus fruit exceptional. With great resistance to cold, this product can be acclimatized in many regions. This selection was made by SB. Resistant to -15°.


Citrangeremo:
Quote
This selection of eremocitrus of Mr. Thierry Asselucio gives small round orange fruits with red points in surmaturité. It presents round orange vesicles like that of the caviar lemons. Few seeds. Fruit can be used fresh, in jam and candied fruit. It is a hybrid between an eremocitrus glauca and a citrange (poncirus x orange). Plant of great resistance to the cold. Resists until -14°.

I don't usually take these details in descriptions from nurseries very serious, as they often don't put a huge amount of thought and care into these. But I noticed the similarity to what Olivier said.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 06:34:39 PM by Peep »

SoCal2warm

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2022, 04:18:31 PM »
I think Citrangeremos are hybrids between Eremocitrus x Citrange.

pagnr

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2022, 12:35:08 AM »
Here's a picture of my Eremolemon Coachella on poncirus.

So what is the other Citrus at your fingertips ?
Looks like my "Microcitrus warburgiana". Mine has dark red new growth tips.
It came from an Australian arboretum, probably first from the UC Riverside collection as seed.

Peep

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2022, 07:49:51 AM »
So what is the other Citrus at your fingertips ?

I believe it's my Shekwasha.

@SoCal2warm

Yes that's right, it's a cross with citrange. So Citrangeremo should be 25% ponicrus I think, and makes me wonder why it's a better mouth eating fruit than Eremorange...

Till

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2023, 04:43:58 PM »
Peep, my Citrangeremo grows well but never fruited. So I do not know how it tastes. But we should not be too skeptical what regards the taste. Poncirus has a very nice aroma besides its famous (horrible) off-flavours. Ilya's Starton (Swingle 5 Star x Morton) has much Poncirus in it but tastes very good.

mikkel

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2023, 02:13:04 AM »
Somewhat theoretically speaking :) A hybrid of Poncirus and a Citrus does not necessarily have 50% Poncirus gene. an F2 like Eremoorgange or Eremocitrange not necessarily 25%.

With each new pollination there is a recombination of genes.

Which genes are expressed phenotypically varies from seedling to seedling. Therefore, hybrids vary greatly in their characteristics from seedling to seedling. Some have poncius traits, others less or not at all.

Percentages are purely hypothetical.

bussone

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2023, 10:18:12 AM »
So what is the other Citrus at your fingertips ?

I believe it's my Shekwasha.

@SoCal2warm

Yes that's right, it's a cross with citrange. So Citrangeremo should be 25% ponicrus I think, and makes me wonder why it's a better mouth eating fruit than Eremorange...

Only a 25% tendency towards vesicles rather than a 50% tendency might make it better eating out of hand? The Australian/PNG citrus tends to be dry.

Re: poncirus flavors, it's interesting that the jelly basically tastes of lemon with more floral overtones. If you can knock out the menthol resin, it's not bad.

BorisR

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2023, 11:11:15 AM »
Somewhat theoretically speaking :) A hybrid of Poncirus and a Citrus does not necessarily have 50% Poncirus gene. an F2 like Eremoorgange or Eremocitrange not necessarily 25%.
I agree about 25%, but not about 50%.

mikkel

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2023, 02:39:23 PM »
You are right, of course. In F1, the genes are always distributed 50:50 (in genotype). What I actually meant was that the phenotypic trait expression does not necessarily have to be 50:50.
The phenotypic expression of the poncirus genes depends very much on the dominance/recessive properties of the individual genes.
(There are also other factors)

mikkel

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2023, 08:44:44 AM »
what about this one?

https://bluewood.yo.fr/produit/eremomandarine-hybride-satsuma-eremocitrus/

in the picture there is a label glauca x Shekwasha, so nothing special. But the description says Hybrid of satsuma-eremocitrus.
The label that comes with the plant says Eremosatsuma.

Who can help?

Peep

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2023, 06:37:07 PM »
what about this one?

https://bluewood.yo.fr/produit/eremomandarine-hybride-satsuma-eremocitrus/

in the picture there is a label glauca x Shekwasha, so nothing special. But the description says Hybrid of satsuma-eremocitrus.
The label that comes with the plant says Eremosatsuma.

Who can help?

Maybe they accidentally used a wrong picture, or used the Glauca x Shekwasha picture because they didn't have a picture of the other and they look very similar.

Can only speculate, better to ask them directly.

What I know is that some people call Glauca x Shekwasha an Eremomandarin, because Shekwasha is a mandarin. But there is a diferent, let's say regular, Eremomandarin that is a different cross. But what I don't know if this "regular Eremomandarin" is the same as Eremosatsuma, or if that would be a third one in the mandarin crosses category.

Till

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2024, 11:33:52 AM »
Does anybody know whether Citrangeremo has zygotic seeds or not?
My Citrangeremo blooms for the first time now after over 12 years of waitung. I wanted to pollinate a citrumelo and Staraji with it. But unfortunatelly the bloom of the citrumelo is over now and my Citrangeremo has not produced pollen so far. So I had no choice except trying the reverse cross: citrangeremo x Staraji. Would be good to now if that is worth trying.

Skandiberg

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2024, 03:51:45 PM »
Hi,

I would like to ask the ones who grow these about the fruits. I know they are smallish but how small really? Are they to be eaten in one piece like kumquat? And what do they taste like besides sweet? I have never eaten or even seen any of the Aussie stuff in person.

There seems to be an improved version of Eremorange, called Eremorange No. 2. It has bigger fruit. It's available only at Quissac in France. I found no other match when I searched it.

Is the hardiness really that good? It's hard to believe the Eremo hybrids are way more cold hardy than their parents would suggest but so many sources claim so that I must believe it.

There is some confusion about Eremomandarin. As far as I know, there is a glauca x shekwasha cross and a glauca x Ikeda Satsuma. Here is the link I found:

https://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/thread/1106/hardy-citrus-hybrids-pini-mandragore

Can you guys verify the hardiness of Eremorange and Eremomandarin in Europe? Eremocitrange seems less hardy but some sources say that one tastes the best of the lot.

I found Eremolemon to be mainly nucellar but nothing about Eremorange. I guess they don't have too many seeds in those small fruits.

Thanks.

Ilya11

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2024, 05:09:25 PM »
I have eremorange from Lenzi, the plant looks like a seedling or a  rooted cutting.
It started to flower after 8 years in ground.

Fruits  were ripe at the end of September, mild acidic taste, mild smell, slightly bitter thin albedo/flavedo; round juice vesicles Could be eaten wholly. Two seeds from two fruits. 11° Brix.

Seeds after germination gave two seedlings that were different in leaf shape

Best regards,
                       Ilya

Skandiberg

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2024, 01:42:06 AM »
Thank you Ilya.

That sounds great. Have you protected it in the last years or it grows without anything? Does it suffer winter damages? 8 years in ground means it should really be as hardy.as they say.

11 Brix and slightly acidic taste suggest to me it has sweetness with a mild Citrus taste. Something like a pomelo maybe? The fruit looks to me about 3 cm which means it's like a mandarin-shaped kumquat. Perfect snack
size.

One seed in one fruit is fine. But two different seedlings of the two seeds sounds great because it has some degree of zygotic seeds. I will definitely add this one to my collection, it seems like a good breeding partner. Cold hardy, wind and drought tolerant, early ripening, good taste - it has all the right features. I wonder why it isn't used more often in breeding.

So thanks Ilya for the information. I will ask Quissac if they ship abroad. The bigger fruited version sounds good. I suspect their answer because all the French nurseries I asked say no to that. But
it's free to ask anyway. However if I can get just the normal Eremorange, that's fine, too.

Ilya11

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2024, 03:15:17 AM »
I always had doubts on the hardiness of glauca and its hybrids and  planted this eremorange in my another garden in the South of France (zone 9b). Actually also regrafted it on PT.
Some people stated that pure glauca is a very difficult plant able to grow only at very elevated temperatures approaching 40C.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Skandiberg

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2024, 04:45:47 AM »
I always had doubts on the hardiness of glauca and its hybrids and  planted this eremorange in my another garden in the South of France (zone 9b). Actually also regrafted it on PT.
Some people stated that pure glauca is a very difficult plant able to grow only at very elevated temperatures approaching 40C.

I agree, the parents don't suggest any proper hardiness but there are numerous reports of its -12 /-15 hardiness. However all the other good features make it worth a try.

Ilya11

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2024, 04:58:54 AM »
I am aware of only one first hand report of such hardiness, but the figures in it are wind chill factors under  winter mistral, not actual centigrades.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Peep

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2024, 03:58:48 PM »
I don't have all the answers, but regarding Glauca:

Quote
When in a dormant condition this species is able to withstand, without injury, temperatures of ten or more degrees below freezing Fahrenheit (-5.5C or lower).   It probably possesses a higher zero point of growth and, in consequence, a greater dormancy in late winter and early spring than Citrus.   It apparently ranks next to, but does not equal, the kumquats in possessing both winter dormancy and resistance to cold.
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3463

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=39110.0


And some info regarding glauca hybrids:

https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/13/3/article-p257.xml

Skandiberg

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Re: The eremo- hybrids, which ones are worth it?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2024, 04:55:04 PM »
I don't have all the answers, but regarding Glauca:

Quote
When in a dormant condition this species is able to withstand, without injury, temperatures of ten or more degrees below freezing Fahrenheit (-5.5C or lower).   It probably possesses a higher zero point of growth and, in consequence, a greater dormancy in late winter and early spring than Citrus.   It apparently ranks next to, but does not equal, the kumquats in possessing both winter dormancy and resistance to cold.
https://citrusvariety.ucr.edu/crc3463

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=39110.0


And some info regarding glauca hybrids:

https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/13/3/article-p257.xml

Thank you Peep. I really appreciate it. You gave me something useful and enjoyable to read on the way to work
tomorrow.

So the secret is not their absolute cold tolerance but the more stable and deeper dormancy. So the temperature rollercoasters don't affect them as badly. They don't feel like spring at the first real sunshine so they start to leaf out and flower later, decreasing the risk of being frozen by a late cold spell.

I like them more and more. In addition, Quissac said they didn't ship here due to bad experiences with long deliveries from our post service. However if I want, they can try it with DPD. So I am waiting for a shipping calculation. I hope it will be reasonable. If so, I may get their Eremorange 2. I asked them about it. It's weird that I don't find any info on that anywhere except their site. Maybe it's their own
selection. If they tell me anything interesting, I will let you know.

 

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