Author Topic: More temperate, less tropical for zone8  (Read 1252 times)

Pokeweed

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More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« on: December 30, 2022, 07:45:55 AM »
These bad cold fronts that seem to be coming more regularly now have me thinking I need to plant fruit and nut trees that actually are for my zone, or a bit colder. My wife and I spent the better part of 2 days protecting our sub and tropicals before each of those events. If we hadn't had sufficient notice we would have lost most of them. Our land is technically zone 9a, but we got down to 10F 2 years ago and just had 12F last week. Of course we are on a ridge, so the wind tends to howl as well. Our humidity is about like central Florida and our Summer sun is brutal.
 I already have the usual plums, peaches, poms, jujubes, persimmons etc. I'm wondering about less common trees/plants that can take some cold. Some stone fruit crosses maybe? I think we get too hot for hazelnuts? What have y'all had success with under similar conditions? Thanks! D

Galatians522

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2022, 07:55:55 PM »
Muscadines, Chickisaw plum, and Mayhaw?

Galatians522

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2022, 08:09:58 PM »
Che, Dunstan American Chestnut hybrid, Pecans, old fashoned hard pears like Pineapple, and maybe figs?

Galatians522

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2022, 08:11:49 PM »
Just Fruit and Exotics in Crawfordville, FL has a really neat website that you might check out. They are in about the same zone as you.

Pokeweed

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2022, 09:35:27 AM »
Thanks for the input. I planted 12 chikasaw plums about 5years ago and I think 2 survived so far. Our mayhaws are finally producing and although mustang grapes are invasive, muscadines struggle. We have several figs. They set good breba crops, but later crops cook in the Summer sun. I've tried chinese chestnuts, but they don't like our Summer. I have lots of osage orange, should graft a che onto one. Regards, D

Galatians522

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2022, 10:53:33 AM »
Thanks for the input. I planted 12 chikasaw plums about 5years ago and I think 2 survived so far. Our mayhaws are finally producing and although mustang grapes are invasive, muscadines struggle. We have several figs. They set good breba crops, but later crops cook in the Summer sun. I've tried chinese chestnuts, but they don't like our Summer. I have lots of osage orange, should graft a che onto one. Regards, D

I've been experimenting with grafting plums to flatwoods plum (the only truly long lived prunus species in my area). It seems to be working well, so far. Muscadines do fine here. I wonder why they would struggle for you. Do you have alkaline soil?

Pokeweed

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2023, 07:45:56 AM »
Our soil is somewhat calcareous and a bit alkaline. I don't remember the ph. I've used sulphur as a spot amendment around plants, but no momentous effects. Early on I used a mulch the local feed store sold that was a manure/plant mix with good results, but they stopped selling it in bulk and bags got expensive fast.

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2023, 12:33:44 PM »
You just need the right grape. A native hybrid. Muench is a good one. Not sure how it would do in your soil but otherwise should do well. Champanel. Not sure how well my Florida grapes would do there but it's a similar soil and climate other than warmer here. Florida calusa grape/shuttleworthii is closely related to mustangs though slightly less acidic slightly better berry not as cold hardy. I really like them and try to get a lot of shuttleworthii in the mix of my hybrids. Pecans do well in Texas you need a southern variety though Eliot would be really good also the best tasting one.

Galatians522

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2023, 01:28:58 PM »
I don't think muscadines care for alkaline soil. That may be the problem. You might actually have better success with a bunchgrape hybrid grafted to a rootstock for alkaline soil (like your mustang grape). I have read about experiments where bunch grapes have been grafted to muscadine, too. I wonder if it would work the other way around? You may want to get a prunus rootstock adapted to alkaline soul as well. It would probably save a lot of work trying to adjust soil ph.

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2023, 06:18:11 PM »
The original scuppernong is from north Carolina. Most muscadines are based on that foundation but with newer varieties they are crossed with Florida and Mexican muscadines for various traits.

Wild muscadines are weeds in south Florida and will choke out other vegetation and literally everywhere. Berries tiny decent to eat other than small size. Domestic muscadines will grow here. But don't do as well. Florida soil tends to be alkaline though varies depending where you are at usually slightly alkaline not a lot. Shuttleworthii prefers slightly alkaline or neutral soil similar to mustangs grapes.

So it depends what kind of muscadine you plant. South Florida muscadine munsonia would probably do well but these are wild types. I don't keep track of pedigrees but some munsonia have bunches so have been cross bred into modern muscadines for bunching. Those might do better. Like southern home has regular vinfera like less than 10% then has Florida, Mexican and traditional muscadine in the cross. It does fairly well in Florida unlike a traditional muscadine which grows and survives but doesn't thrive here. Though muscadines are not very productive here fruit wise so I wouldn't recommend them strictly for the crop.

Pokeweed

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2023, 09:03:45 AM »
We have had good success with black Spanish grapes if that tells you anything about our conditions. There is a vineyard of victoria redgrapes South of us. It sounds like our ph is similar. Alkaline, but not extreme. I've been wanting to try more grapes. I'll look for some of those. Thanks!

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2023, 12:59:53 PM »
Black Spanish does well in Florida too. Victoria red is not easy to grow it needs a lot of spraying but some people can do it. Daytona has one parent the same as Victoria red and is probably slightly tougher and slightly better grape though also not super tough but possible. I have bd5-117 crosses I think that's the number. I call it bd. Daytona x stover never got released. It's a good table grape wine grape tougher than Daytona. More similar to stover in toughness but better table grape than stover. Passed on pierce tolerance well so I wanted to use it a lot in crossing.

European grapes grow in alkaline soil as well so do Texas grapes and Florida but the rest of the country is acidic soil. But a lot of hybrids alkaline is not a problem because the domestic grape grows in such soil in Europe.

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2023, 01:14:17 PM »
Actually pedals of past has stover you can order. It's mostly a wine grape but good tasting berries for eating. It will survive without spray but have a lot of leaf damage so just occasional spraying would work. It does well in alkaline soil but does better grafted.

I talked to a guy Tampa he has stover (1/4 shuttleworthii) and taris burgundy 1/2 shuttleworthii) in Tampa. They survive the alkaline soil there unlike a lot of grapes. He found a native aestavalis with good berries and grafted them to aestavalis roots. They do better grow faster and such on native roots but doing fine on their own.

I have stuff that is half taris burgundy but taris had some disease on it and was struggling then a dog chewed on it and it kicked the bucket. It might have made it but my crosses are tougher. Then I have a selfed bd seedling that is mostly healthy but grows slow due to being inbred and I have some crosses with bd but haven't tried stover though it gets more disease than taris. I wouldn't mind crossing with it.

But I had my grapes in this sand dirt and they barely grew at all. I put them in giant pots of mostly potting soil with a little sand and a little clay seems to enhance it then mulch on top and they grow like crazy. They like a small amount of sand but not a lot.

They don't like really acidic or really alkaline most of them. I used seed starter dirt that has neutral pH when I could find it. Other times potting soil which is a bit too acidic but I sprinkle some of the alkaline sand in the mix not much and they live it. A tiny amount of clay just holds more water along with mulch because in hot summer they get bone dry quick so that helped. In pots they dry out faster. Some of them their roots poked out the bottom and growing in sand on the bottom but doing fine.bin the sandy dirt even when I filled a hole with compost and put them in it not much vigor. Maybe it's really alkaline in this spot or something else. But giant pots are the way to go.

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2023, 04:01:43 PM »
I'll say this too. They want $100 for a pecan tree and you need a few for good cross pollination. If you are willing to wait six or so years for them to mature just by uncooked pecans online from the farm. First of all good eating. But just put them in dirt and they sprout. Though germinate indoors because squirrels and stuff will eat them. For deep south sub tropical get Elliot then a second type if you want variety. You need a good disease resistant variety because a lot of popular varieties are susceptible and they put them on root stock. I just know Elliot blooms in Florida is disease resistant and best tasting though smaller nuts and thick shells. I don't know other good varieties off my head.

Almost all of them implanted sprouted but they got eaten even with the plant coming out.

Galatians522

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2023, 07:11:15 PM »
I'll say this too. They want $100 for a pecan tree and you need a few for good cross pollination. If you are willing to wait six or so years for them to mature just by uncooked pecans online from the farm. First of all good eating. But just put them in dirt and they sprout. Though germinate indoors because squirrels and stuff will eat them. For deep south sub tropical get Elliot then a second type if you want variety. You need a good disease resistant variety because a lot of popular varieties are susceptible and they put them on root stock. I just know Elliot blooms in Florida is disease resistant and best tasting though smaller nuts and thick shells. I don't know other good varieties off my head.

Almost all of them implanted sprouted but they got eaten even with the plant coming out.

I've been trying to find a pecan that would pollinate Eliott. So far Amling sounds like the best option.

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2023, 04:40:57 AM »
They don't grow true to seed and most seeds revert to something closer to a wild type. So if you grow a bunch of seeds they should pollinate each other. They use wild pecans for root stock generally just grown from seed.

Usually the online farms have about three varieties. So if they have Eliot you can see the other two they use to pollinate each other. Elliot is the only one native to Florida that is a domesticated variety. There's some that are south Georgia maybe north Florida compatible. In central or south Florida pecans grow but don't get nuts due to lack of winter though Elliot can get nuts with almost no winter.

Pokeweed

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2023, 08:11:20 AM »
Really good info. Thanks! I'll  check out petals of the past. I should have started pecans years ago. I don't know the variety, but people in the area have young trees they have to thin nuts or prop the limbs to keep them from breaking. I have a couple types of almond but they have never fruited. I need to investigate that. D

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2023, 06:28:21 PM »
Pretty much.any southern type which is most of them should work in Texas. Some are more disease resistant than others. Florida other than north Florida we lack the chill.hoursband Elliot is the lowest chill hour one.

Elliot is the only hard shell that is popular. The wild ones are all hard shell. But it has the best flavor. It's a bunch of work getting pecans first removing the green covering then cracking the shells. But it's a survival food. It has all the nutrients you need so you could survive on them a long time in an emergency.

Petals from the past also has a concord like grape called foxie Lottie which is primarily aestavalis. But they are often sold out of stover. I told the guy I get my grape seeds from he needs to sell rooted cuttings. You just can't even buy southern varieties anywhere. He gets them from requests to the university of California which keeps and breeds plants or old collections. You have to know people. Petals from the past is one of the only places and they only have two varieties.

I had one pecan from seed but don't have the property anymore. Elliot seed. It went dormat when it got dry in the winter despite it not being cold. Same deal with some grapes being dried out helps induce dormancy and helps them stay in it. But even with grapes a good cold snap and you get larger crops if it goes below freezing.

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2023, 06:58:14 PM »
I looked it up. Pedals of the past has been sold out of stover for a couple years. Maybe they gave up selling it.

There was a Florida winery that sold stover wine for a long time but some fungus got to them and they were replaced with my scadines. I'm guessing it was rust fungus which is mainly an issue in really humid tropical areas but I have a lot of it on my grapes here. Some are more resistant than others but even wild grapes can have some disease here where it's 100% humidity most the year.

The guy in Tampa let's his get diseased which results in lower yield but probably better flavor. He says it's good almost chardonnay type wine. I have Suwannee which has similar disease resistance and similar rated wine but different flavor and lineage though has big berries and is therefore a better table grape. It takes a lot of disease damage but can survive without spray like stover. I hope to move north it's too far south for grapes here despite all the wild ones. I'll just use the great wild material here for breeding.

Galatians522

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2023, 09:51:41 PM »
They don't grow true to seed and most seeds revert to something closer to a wild type. So if you grow a bunch of seeds they should pollinate each other. They use wild pecans for root stock generally just grown from seed.

Usually the online farms have about three varieties. So if they have Eliot you can see the other two they use to pollinate each other. Elliot is the only one native to Florida that is a domesticated variety. There's some that are south Georgia maybe north Florida compatible. In central or south Florida pecans grow but don't get nuts due to lack of winter though Elliot can get nuts with almost no winter.

I found another one native to Florida called Curtis. Its from the Jacksonville area. It has small nuts like Eliott, but they have flecks on the nut halves that some people don't like. So, it never became as well known. Unfortunately, it happens to be the same pollen type as Eliott female flowers first (or protogynus). I know of some bearing pecans in the l
Lake Placid area. Some day I will see if any of them are male first (protodandrus). Even if the nut quality wasn't great, I would still be happy with a pollinator for the other two.

1rainman

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2023, 12:26:17 AM »
Lake placid has a much nicer climate than here in my opinion even though it's not far away. Went in the summer and it wasn't as humid as here then in the winter it's cooler. I don't know where you are. Tampa is slightly better than here too. Not only do I hate this 100% humidity and heat it's bad for most plants other than bananas or something. I forgot about Curtis I heard of it before. I thought maybe it was from Georgia or something.

Tortuga

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2023, 11:25:54 AM »
Im in zone 8b so Ive planted Mulberries (fruit the first year) loquat, paw paw, jelly palm, mandarins on trifoliate rootstock, yuzu, Harvey lemons, blueberries, lemon grass, licorice grass, red bay, many varieties of figs. I have about 15 potted tropical plants that I build a small discrete frame over the majority of the plants in winter and each night it drops 37 and lower I wrap them in frost blankets. I have c9 incandescent Xmas lights on my plants as well. This whole setup can stay at a temp of 52 degrees on a 20 degree night and can hold that temp over many days if needed.

W.

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2023, 02:45:22 AM »
I think we get too hot for hazelnuts?

Regardless of temperature, Eastern Filbert Blight makes growing hazelnuts a non-starter over much of the US.

manfromyard

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2023, 11:17:55 AM »
So what about all the bight resistant varieties that have been coming out of Oregon and Missouri?
Seems like they're working for most people..

Enkis

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Re: More temperate, less tropical for zone8
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2023, 01:50:01 PM »
Im in zone 8b so Ive planted Mulberries (fruit the first year) loquat, paw paw, jelly palm, mandarins on trifoliate rootstock, yuzu, Harvey lemons, blueberries, lemon grass, licorice grass, red bay, many varieties of figs. I have about 15 potted tropical plants that I build a small discrete frame over the majority of the plants in winter and each night it drops 37 and lower I wrap them in frost blankets. I have c9 incandescent Xmas lights on my plants as well. This whole setup can stay at a temp of 52 degrees on a 20 degree night and can hold that temp over many days if needed.

I live in zone 8b as well and have been planning to grow tropicals exactly how you are doing, building frames around the plants rather then having a permanent greenhouse.
What tropicals were you able to grow and have good quality fruits out of them?
I was planning to eventually plant in ground rather then keep them forever in pots. What's the reason for your choice? Do you move them?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2023, 01:58:14 PM by Enkis »
Keep planting and nobody explodes

 

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