Author Topic: marcotting vs rooting question  (Read 1559 times)

brian

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marcotting vs rooting question
« on: February 21, 2024, 06:31:21 PM »
I had never attempted air-layering / marcotting before, but I have done cleft grafting and rooting many times.  I was reading about marcotting and watching some videos and it seems odd to me that the leaves on the selected branch are left on.  I always remove all or nearly all leaves when rooting of grafting to keep them from drying out. 

After the bark (w/ phloem) is removed, isn't marcotting functionally the same as rooting?  Or is the wood (xylem) still transporting water into the branch and is this the reason marcotting is superior to cutting the limb off entirely and rooting it? 

I just attempted this on my ice cream bean tree and I must admit I feel like the girdled branch is going to just wilt completely by tomorrow because these things are so thirsty.  I can't imagine it is uptaking any significant amount of moisture from the peat bag/wrapping.

Sorry if this seems like such a basic question but I found a million guides on grafting but none went into any detail about *why* it is done this way.

Rauf

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2024, 07:10:47 PM »
It's interesting for me too. It seems wood still is transporting  the water.

Galatians522

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2024, 11:02:15 PM »
The girdling does several things as I understand it. For one thing, girdling stresses the branch and helps to induce changes in plant hormones that contribute to the formation of root primordia. As you mentioned, the xylem is still bringing water to the leaves. This keeps the branch hydrated. However, with the cambium gone the sugars from the leaves are not able to get down to the roots. Those extra sugars provide energy for the branch to make roots. More leaves means more sugars and better rooting. As a result, you actually want maximum leaf levels and sun exposure. Do not remove any leaves or shade the air layer. In my experience, most things that propagate from cuttings will also air layer, but I believe there are exceptions to this.

elouicious

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2024, 11:07:31 PM »
The girdling does several things as I understand it. For one thing, girdling stresses the branch and helps to induce changes in plant hormones that contribute to the formation of root primordia. As you mentioned, the xylem is still bringing water to the leaves. This keeps the branch hydrated. However, with the cambium gone the sugars from the leaves are not able to get down to the roots. Those extra sugars provide energy for the branch to make roots. More leaves means more sugars and better rooting. As a result, you actually want maximum leaf levels and sun exposure. Do not remove any leaves or shade the air layer. In my experience, most things that propagate from cuttings will also air layer, but I believe there are exceptions to this.

excellent answer

Finca La Isla

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2024, 08:15:16 AM »
That is a very good answer except for the last point. Any cutting that can be rooted can be air layered. But not necessarily the other way around.
We commercially layer rambutan, for example. We must get 90% or better. Wed never get that with cuttings if any at all.
Peter

Galatians522

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2024, 08:27:32 AM »
That is a very good answer except for the last point. Any cutting that can be rooted can be air layered. But not necessarily the other way around.
We commercially layer rambutan, for example. We must get 90% or better. Wed never get that with cuttings if any at all.
Peter

I say that because of Macadamia. I have air layered lychee on a commercial level. When we tried macadamia on a small scale we got callus formation but no roots until we cut them off and treated them like cuttings. Was it a fluke??? I don't know. Also, Atemoya can be rooted from cuttings according to Australian literature. I have never gotten it to air layer successfully because it has weak wood and the layers have always gotten snapped off by wind. In theory it works, but in practice its not practical. That is why I add the caveat.

Finca La Isla

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2024, 12:28:24 PM »
Thats interesting. Rooting cuttings and marcotting have a lot in common. Since the whole thing is alive and supported by a root system it makes sense that marcotting should be more forgiving. But I guess, then in agriculture, theres always an exception.
Thanks, Peter

brian

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2024, 12:32:34 PM »
Thank you for the responses.  When I did the marcott on my inga I wasn't thinking about the stripped wood still being alive and useful, so I wasn't paying attention to how well the peat bag was covering it, only focusing on the child side of the girdled patch.  I am now thinking it is imperative that the whole stripped wood area is covered by the peat bag to keep it from drying out and cutting off the flow of water up from the parent tree to the child.  I went to check on my work and it looks like I do have the wood completely covered, and the branch has not wilted. 

this is what I was worried about:


I also found an article segment specifically about air-layer versus cuttings for Inga.  It says 100% success with airlayer, 55% success with cuttings *that still have all their leaves*, and 0% success with cuttings that had their leaves removed.  Very interesting.  Also, it mentions rooting hormone is beneficial here, something I had also included in my effort.


New Forests1   5:3751, 1998
Vegetative propagation of Inga feuillei from shootcuttings and air layering
...
Compound leaves were either reduced in area or removed entirely before auxin pretreatmentwith 0, 0.3, or 0.8% indolebutyric acid (IBA) followed by sticking under mist or in a poly-ethylene enclosure.
Leafless cuttings did not root regardless of moisture management system  or auxin pretreatment, whereas 55% rooting of leafy cuttings was observed.
Leafy cuttings rooted significantly better under mist than in a polyethylene enclosure.
Auxin treatment at thehigher level increased rooting percentage approximately two fold for larger diameter cuttings(8.1 to 20 mm), but  had no effect on the smaller  cuttings  (2 to 8 mm), and resulted in anapproximately three fold increase in the number of roots/rooted cutting for both stem diameterclasses.
Auxin treatment did not affect rooting percentage of leafy softwood cuttings underfog, however it did increase the number of roots per rooted cutting.
One hundred percent of airlayered shoots rooted within 5 weeks with or without auxin pretreatment, and all rooted layerssurvived transplanting to soil.
Possible implications of this research on agroforestry, selection,genetic improvement, and conservation are discussed.

drymifolia

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2024, 12:41:58 PM »
It says 100% success with airlayer, 55% success with cuttings *that still have all their leaves*, and 0% success with cuttings that had their leaves removed

That's similar to Mexican avocados, which root at pretty high rates (for the patient) but only when leaves are left intact. You need to root them under intermittent mist or humidity domes, because it takes many months to root and they will dry out otherwise.

The theory put forth in the old research papers about avocado rooting was that root formation is triggered by a buildup of carbohydrates in the lower stem, which can only occur when you have ongoing photosynthesis in the cutting. I'm guessing it's similar for other species that only root easily with leaves left on.

brian

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2024, 01:54:41 PM »
It has been nearly two months since I started the airlayer on my inga.  The branch is still very healthy but I have yet to see roots appear on the soil bag.  The article I posted mentioned 100% success with rooting after five weeks.  Should I cut the branch and assume it has roots they just haven't reached the edge of the bag yet to become visible?

I would just wait until they appear but colder weather (~36F) is coming and I have to haul most of my trees back into the greenhouse.  The inga is too big to move now that I up-potted it into a 35gal container knowing that it will be trashed when winter comes.  I am guessing that near freezing weather could harm the airlayer, but I might be worrying about nothing.  I expect the parent tree will be fine.

Should I cut the airlayer now and put it in the heated greenhouse?  Or leave it as-is until it shows roots?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 10:00:12 PM by brian »

brian

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2024, 04:34:59 PM »
oh, I guess I got my answer, the roots just appeared today!  I am going to cut it off


Seanny

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2024, 06:31:06 PM »
Wait for more roots


NateTheGreat

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2024, 06:34:18 PM »
That is a very good answer except for the last point. Any cutting that can be rooted can be air layered. But not necessarily the other way around.
We commercially layer rambutan, for example. We must get 90% or better. Wed never get that with cuttings if any at all.
Peter

I say that because of Macadamia. I have air layered lychee on a commercial level. When we tried macadamia on a small scale we got callus formation but no roots until we cut them off and treated them like cuttings. Was it a fluke??? I don't know. Also, Atemoya can be rooted from cuttings according to Australian literature. I have never gotten it to air layer successfully because it has weak wood and the layers have always gotten snapped off by wind. In theory it works, but in practice its not practical. That is why I add the caveat.

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=47077.0 Macadamia can be air layered

Finca La Isla

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2024, 06:35:17 PM »
So we wrap layers in foil and its easy to unroll a bit to check the progress. If weather were no consideration I would want to see the medium full of roots. What I cant see from the photo is how many roots there actually are. In any case the layer is successful so, congratulations. When to cut it is something to figure out but at least you know it works for you. After you cut the layer away you might then cut foliage back depending on how much rooting is present. Seek a balance.
Peter

ScottR

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2024, 06:59:04 PM »
Nice job Brian, now to keep it alive in transition from layer to potted plant best o f luck 8)

kh0110

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2024, 08:06:35 PM »
Nice job Brian, now to keep it alive in transition from layer to potted plant best o f luck 8)

With air layering, this is the hardest part in my opinion.
Thera

Finca La Isla

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2024, 09:50:29 PM »
The medium needs to be kept very wet when establishing layers in pots.
Peter

brian

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2024, 09:56:39 PM »
Too late, it's cut.  The roots do look sparse, I'm not sure if it'll survive.  I cut half the leaves off to try to balance it out, as you suggest.  It is now in a container in the greenhouse in half shade.

Think it has a chance to survive?

If not, it isn't a huge deal.  I expect the parent will survive the coming mid-30F lows and if so I have six months or so to try again.  And I have an Inga Spectabilis seedling growing meanwhile.





« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 10:14:55 PM by brian »

Finca La Isla

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2024, 10:28:25 PM »
I think it was cut too early but that it could grow. Id keep it wet and warm. Ive seen stuff like that work out.
Suerte
Peter

brian

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2024, 10:36:39 PM »
Peter, do you think I should cut the leaves back severely?  I could even cut it back to that swelling bud just above the roots, if drying out is the main risk.

Mike T

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2024, 06:47:44 AM »
I have a very high success rate on lychees, rambutan, sapodilla, wax apple, guava, langsat, sour sop, canistel and others. In the last 2 weeks I have put over 200 marcots on my trees and expect most to work well from experience. Pity its hard to post pics these days.
Anyway I see a few red flags in the pics and descriptions. Ideal branch width is 1cm to 3 cm but micromarcots are easy. Ideal ringbark width is 1cm to 2cm not like in the pics below. Paint or brush with rootex or clonex 8g per l concentration. I prefer gel to powder. Have pre prepared ziplock (I use 15 x 9cm mostly) cut on one side then tape over ring back. Tape it up well. Aluminium foil does not change the success rate. Remove in 4 weeks to 6 months with 8 weeks being average. Make sure they are well rooted unlike the plant below in the pic. Trim then pot. EASY. The mix in the bag I use is 50 : vermiculite and coco coir but sphagnum is fine. Below does look too leafy with too many roots and should be settled in a pot until properly rooted.The ties shown are less secure and looser than using electrical tape. The width of bark removed below is way in excess of required. In many cases it works out better than grafting for tree vigour and speed to fruiting.

Galatians522

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2024, 09:34:12 AM »
It was cut early, but you can make it work. I would cut it back to the second pair of leaflets and then trim those so that it only has 4 leaves on the whole tree. Bag it and mist the leaves several times a day (if possible) to prevent desication.

Galatians522

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2024, 09:36:44 AM »
That is a very good answer except for the last point. Any cutting that can be rooted can be air layered. But not necessarily the other way around.
We commercially layer rambutan, for example. We must get 90% or better. Wed never get that with cuttings if any at all.
Peter

I say that because of Macadamia. I have air layered lychee on a commercial level. When we tried macadamia on a small scale we got callus formation but no roots until we cut them off and treated them like cuttings. Was it a fluke??? I don't know. Also, Atemoya can be rooted from cuttings according to Australian literature. I have never gotten it to air layer successfully because it has weak wood and the layers have always gotten snapped off by wind. In theory it works, but in practice its not practical. That is why I add the caveat.

https://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=47077.0 Macadamia can be air layered

Thanks Nate, if it makes any difference I was working with integrifolia. I wonder if tetrafolia and its hybrids are easier to layer. Maybe I should try again.

Finca La Isla

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2024, 12:53:38 PM »
I think youre getting pretty good advice.  Id probably leave 12-15 leaves on that layer.  Damp and warm.
Peter

brian

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Re: marcotting vs rooting question
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2024, 05:22:26 PM »
Thanks, all, for the suggestions.  I have trimmed the leaves back more severely.

I have a very high success rate on lychees, rambutan, sapodilla, wax apple, guava, langsat, sour sop, canistel and others. In the last 2 weeks I have put over 200 marcots on my trees and expect most to work well from experience. Pity its hard to post pics these days.
Anyway I see a few red flags in the pics and descriptions. Ideal branch width is 1cm to 3 cm but micromarcots are easy. Ideal ringbark width is 1cm to 2cm not like in the pics below. Paint or brush with rootex or clonex 8g per l concentration. I prefer gel to powder. Have pre prepared ziplock (I use 15 x 9cm mostly) cut on one side then tape over ring back. Tape it up well. Aluminium foil does not change the success rate. Remove in 4 weeks to 6 months with 8 weeks being average. Make sure they are well rooted unlike the plant below in the pic. Trim then pot. EASY. The mix in the bag I use is 50 : vermiculite and coco coir but sphagnum is fine. Below does look too leafy with too many roots and should be settled in a pot until properly rooted.The ties shown are less secure and looser than using electrical tape. The width of bark removed below is way in excess of required. In many cases it works out better than grafting for tree vigour and speed to fruiting.

Thanks for the detailed advice!

 

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