Author Topic: Which citrumelo is better? More resistant, better flavor or earlier to harvest.  (Read 1502 times)

Lauta_hibrid

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Good morning, I used these varieties in the graph because I wanted to compare shapes and sizes, although I don't have them to make a correct scale, and since they are the most mentioned, I mention their quality. Regarding their origin, I only have these parents implied, but I don't know the origin of the others. What information can you give me? Is any of them ripe before the frost? Which one has less resin, less acidity, less aftertaste of poncirus, less bitter and less resin. I only tried Swingle, but I would like to know which others are suitable for my breeding plan. I would also like to know about the proportion of zygotes.

BorisR

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I have noted that citrumelo Swingle has a proportion of nucellar seeds from 64% to 95% according to various sources, Sacaton contains about 40% of zygote seeds (I can give links to sources).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2024, 02:03:21 PM by BorisR »

Wahl

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My Swingle are getting ripe now so before to bad of a frost. The taste to for tri hybrid is good with not much tri flavor.
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Mulberry0126

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So I have a detailed taste review on Dunstan and Sacaton, as well as mention of Swingle in a different video. I also made a picture to compare fruit size when I am offering the plants for sale.
Dunstan is my favorite, it ripens before frost here, and I actually prefer it slightly underripe. Fully ripe or after a frost it has a more prominent trifoliate taste. It has an acidic pomelo taste and some grapefruit bitterness but not much, it's quite palatable.
Sacaton is larger and juicier but milder in taste and reminds me of a sour orange and grapefruit but more diluted. It has a slight trifoliate taste, similar to Dunstan when fully ripe. I'm not sure when exactly it ripens here but it seems similar to Dunstan.
Swingle is the smallest of the bunch and has more of a lemon/sour orange taste mixed with grapefruit. Hints of mandarin too but the trifoliate taste is more noticeable than the others. It ripens before frost here.
I have not had the opportunity to try 5star, but if my trees set fruit next year I will review them too.

Here's the video review:
https://youtu.be/sWMmj09REC4?si=SyUei_N2Z9QlkDxM

Here's the photo comparison:


Also, forgot to mention. In terms of % nucellar seeds, Dunstan and Swingle must be 95% or more, they are highly uniform for us. Sacaton seems much lower, no matter the source.
They were the most uniform from Lyn Citrus Seed, but still had 10-15% zygotes. Seeds from open-pollinated trees at Stan McKenzie's farm were highly zygotic, upwards of 50-60%. Based on their morphology, many of them seemed to cross with Ten Degree Tangerine which was in close proximity.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2024, 08:50:21 AM by Mulberry0126 »

Wahl

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So I have a detailed taste review on Dunstan and Sacaton, as well as mention of Swingle in a different video. I also made a picture to compare fruit size when I am offering the plants for sale.
Dunstan is my favorite, it ripens before frost here, and I actually prefer it slightly underripe. Fully ripe or after a frost it has a more prominent trifoliate taste. It has an acidic pomelo taste and some grapefruit bitterness but not much, it's quite palatable.
Sacaton is larger and juicier but milder in taste and reminds me of a sour orange and grapefruit but more diluted. It has a slight trifoliate taste, similar to Dunstan when fully ripe. I'm not sure when exactly it ripens here but it seems similar to Dunstan.
Swingle is the smallest of the bunch and has more of a lemon/sour orange taste mixed with grapefruit. Hints of mandarin too but the trifoliate taste is more noticeable than the others. It ripens before frost here.
I have not had the opportunity to try 5star, but if my trees set fruit next year I will review them too.

Here's the video review:
https://youtu.be/sWMmj09REC4?si=SyUei_N2Z9QlkDxM

Here's the photo comparison:


Also, forgot to mention. In terms of % nucellar seeds, Dunstan and Swingle must be 95% or more, they are highly uniform for us. Sacaton seems much lower, no matter the source.
They were the most uniform from Lyn Citrus Seed, but still had 10-15% zygotes. Seeds from open-pollinated trees at Stan McKenzie's farm were highly zygotic, upwards of 50-60%. Based on their morphology, many of them seemed to cross with Ten Degree Tangerine which was in close proximity.
[/quote



The few years my Swingle fruited the taste of was good with slim none all trifoliate, I think it was a more grapefruit also the size on mine where bigger it seems. I have some fruit this year again, after these very cold winters so I'll see if I'm remembering is right.
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Lauta_hibrid

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So I have a detailed taste review on Dunstan and Sacaton, as well as mention of Swingle in a different video. I also made a picture to compare fruit size when I am offering the plants for sale.
Dunstan is my favorite, it ripens before frost here, and I actually prefer it slightly underripe. Fully ripe or after a frost it has a more prominent trifoliate taste. It has an acidic pomelo taste and some grapefruit bitterness but not much, it's quite palatable.
Sacaton is larger and juicier but milder in taste and reminds me of a sour orange and grapefruit but more diluted. It has a slight trifoliate taste, similar to Dunstan when fully ripe. I'm not sure when exactly it ripens here but it seems similar to Dunstan.
Swingle is the smallest of the bunch and has more of a lemon/sour orange taste mixed with grapefruit. Hints of mandarin too but the trifoliate taste is more noticeable than the others. It ripens before frost here.
I have not had the opportunity to try 5star, but if my trees set fruit next year I will review them too.

Here's the video review:
https://youtu.be/sWMmj09REC4?si=SyUei_N2Z9QlkDxM

Here's the photo comparison:


Also, forgot to mention. In terms of % nucellar seeds, Dunstan and Swingle must be 95% or more, they are highly uniform for us. Sacaton seems much lower, no matter the source.
They were the most uniform from Lyn Citrus Seed, but still had 10-15% zygotes. Seeds from open-pollinated trees at Stan McKenzie's farm were highly zygotic, upwards of 50-60%. Based on their morphology, many of them seemed to cross with Ten Degree Tangerine which was in close proximity.
Excellent, thank you very much for the thorough explanation. Have you made breeding plans to achieve new genetics? I would like to perhaps mix with Morton and Bishop, to achieve more Citrus characteristics than Poncirus, since these seem to be the best tasting. Perhaps in future generations we can lose certain bad characteristics and concentrate the good ones. I think about doing backcrosses, but this would reduce resistance... I already have C. maxima x Poncirus and C. maxima x troyer, this year I am hoping to form fruit from C. maxima x Morton... but I don't know if it will be achieved 🤞

a_Vivaldi

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Good video!

I think citrus growers use the term "ricey" to describe those kinds of vesicles on the citrandarin. I could be wrong there though.

Mulberry0126

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So I have a detailed taste review on Dunstan and Sacaton, as well as mention of Swingle in a different video. I also made a picture to compare fruit size when I am offering the plants for sale.
Dunstan is my favorite, it ripens before frost here, and I actually prefer it slightly underripe. Fully ripe or after a frost it has a more prominent trifoliate taste. It has an acidic pomelo taste and some grapefruit bitterness but not much, it's quite palatable.
Sacaton is larger and juicier but milder in taste and reminds me of a sour orange and grapefruit but more diluted. It has a slight trifoliate taste, similar to Dunstan when fully ripe. I'm not sure when exactly it ripens here but it seems similar to Dunstan.
Swingle is the smallest of the bunch and has more of a lemon/sour orange taste mixed with grapefruit. Hints of mandarin too but the trifoliate taste is more noticeable than the others. It ripens before frost here.
I have not had the opportunity to try 5star, but if my trees set fruit next year I will review them too.

Here's the video review:
https://youtu.be/sWMmj09REC4?si=SyUei_N2Z9QlkDxM

Here's the photo comparison:


Also, forgot to mention. In terms of % nucellar seeds, Dunstan and Swingle must be 95% or more, they are highly uniform for us. Sacaton seems much lower, no matter the source.
They were the most uniform from Lyn Citrus Seed, but still had 10-15% zygotes. Seeds from open-pollinated trees at Stan McKenzie's farm were highly zygotic, upwards of 50-60%. Based on their morphology, many of them seemed to cross with Ten Degree Tangerine which was in close proximity.
Excellent, thank you very much for the thorough explanation. Have you made breeding plans to achieve new genetics? I would like to perhaps mix with Morton and Bishop, to achieve more Citrus characteristics than Poncirus, since these seem to be the best tasting. Perhaps in future generations we can lose certain bad characteristics and concentrate the good ones. I think about doing backcrosses, but this would reduce resistance... I already have C. maxima x Poncirus and C. maxima x troyer, this year I am hoping to form fruit from C. maxima x Morton... but I don't know if it will be achieved 🤞

Yes, I have lots of ideas for future crosses, and I think a Morton x Bishop cross could be very good. Here's a small list of some crosses I may attempt next season:
Calamondin x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Kumquat x Citrandarin
Kumquat x Tai Tri
Clem-yuz x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Yuzu x Poncirus
Yuzu + Trifoliate (Carolina Chimera)
Yuzu x Tai Tri
Ichang Papeda x Poncirus
Ichang Papeda x Tai Tri
Ichang Papeda x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Your crosses sound very interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing them in the future!

mikkel

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I think a Morton x Bishop cross could be very good.

It might also be helpful to use Bishop as a mother tree, Morton is said to produce almost only nucellar seeds. Bishop as a mother could be more promising.

Mulberry0126

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That's true, and Bishop produces far more seeds from what I have seen. I believe kumin told me that the % nucellar seeds is higher than US-852 but I'm not sure how much.

a_Vivaldi

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Yes, I have lots of ideas for future crosses, and I think a Morton x Bishop cross could be very good. Here's a small list of some crosses I may attempt next season:
Calamondin x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Kumquat x Citrandarin
Kumquat x Tai Tri
Clem-yuz x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Yuzu x Poncirus
Yuzu + Trifoliate (Carolina Chimera)
Yuzu x Tai Tri
Ichang Papeda x Poncirus
Ichang Papeda x Tai Tri
Ichang Papeda x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Your crosses sound very interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing them in the future!

Very cool!

I just collected seed from a Thomasville x clementine cross, waiting for germination on them. I don't think they'll be any more hardy than a satsuma, but they're the only cross I made that didn't drop when it failed to rain for the entire month of June...

My own 1279 graft looks to have a delayed failure of some kind so the crosses I was planning with it are going to have to wait. The same thing happened to the Bishop citradarin I had, but none of my other grafts, so something weird is going on with those two. In the meantime I'll likely be able to try some of:

Meyer lemon x Ichang papeda
Meyer lemon x Dunstan
Meyer lemon x Poncirus+
Ichang papeda x Ichang lemon (if the latter blooms, which it might)
Clementine x Dunstan
Clementine x US-802 (looks like it might bloom this spring)
Clementine x Poncirus+
Marumi x Dunstan
Marumi x Ichang papeda
Marumi x US-802 (if it blooms)
Marumi x Thomasville

Not sure these are the exact crosses I'll make, depends on bloom times and such, but that's the general idea. Bloomsweet, Ten Degree Tangerine, Poorman Orange, US-1516, US-852, and Taiwanica are all in the works to make crosses with as well, but I don't think they'll bloom this spring. A few others are on the list but won't be happening any time soon. I might pick up a 1279 and a Bishop citandarin from you if/when you offer them for sale again.

I've considered getting Excaliber Red Lime, SugarBelle (not sure about patents on that one though), Kiyomi, Cara Cara (pollen could be an issue though...) Eremo x Shek, Kishu, Ujikitsu, and Mineola for breeding with, but I doubt I ever actually will. If my satsumas ever actually produce pollen I'll be sure to try and mix them in with something, but again, I don't know if that'll ever actually happen.

Mulberry0126

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Yes, I have lots of ideas for future crosses, and I think a Morton x Bishop cross could be very good. Here's a small list of some crosses I may attempt next season:
Calamondin x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Kumquat x Citrandarin
Kumquat x Tai Tri
Clem-yuz x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Yuzu x Poncirus
Yuzu + Trifoliate (Carolina Chimera)
Yuzu x Tai Tri
Ichang Papeda x Poncirus
Ichang Papeda x Tai Tri
Ichang Papeda x Citrandarin (942, 1279, Bishop)
Your crosses sound very interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing them in the future!

Very cool!

I just collected seed from a Thomasville x clementine cross, waiting for germination on them. I don't think they'll be any more hardy than a satsuma, but they're the only cross I made that didn't drop when it failed to rain for the entire month of June...

My own 1279 graft looks to have a delayed failure of some kind so the crosses I was planning with it are going to have to wait. The same thing happened to the Bishop citradarin I had, but none of my other grafts, so something weird is going on with those two. In the meantime I'll likely be able to try some of:

Meyer lemon x Ichang papeda
Meyer lemon x Dunstan
Meyer lemon x Poncirus+
Ichang papeda x Ichang lemon (if the latter blooms, which it might)
Clementine x Dunstan
Clementine x US-802 (looks like it might bloom this spring)
Clementine x Poncirus+
Marumi x Dunstan
Marumi x Ichang papeda
Marumi x US-802 (if it blooms)
Marumi x Thomasville

Not sure these are the exact crosses I'll make, depends on bloom times and such, but that's the general idea. Bloomsweet, Ten Degree Tangerine, Poorman Orange, US-1516, US-852, and Taiwanica are all in the works to make crosses with as well, but I don't think they'll bloom this spring. A few others are on the list but won't be happening any time soon. I might pick up a 1279 and a Bishop citandarin from you if/when you offer them for sale again.

I've considered getting Excaliber Red Lime, SugarBelle (not sure about patents on that one though), Kiyomi, Cara Cara (pollen could be an issue though...) Eremo x Shek, Kishu, Ujikitsu, and Mineola for breeding with, but I doubt I ever actually will. If my satsumas ever actually produce pollen I'll be sure to try and mix them in with something, but again, I don't know if that'll ever actually happen.

Those sound like very interesting crosses too. I actually was gifted scionwood from a mature Clementine x Thomasville but I know nothing about it or its fruit. One of my micro-grafts of this combo has mixed foliage types. Have you tried Marumi kumquat? Is it fairly zygotic? Mine hasn't set fruit yet but I'm very interested in it.

a_Vivaldi

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Those sound like very interesting crosses too. I actually was gifted scionwood from a mature Clementine x Thomasville but I know nothing about it or its fruit. One of my micro-grafts of this combo has mixed foliage types. Have you tried Marumi kumquat? Is it fairly zygotic? Mine hasn't set fruit yet but I'm very interested in it.

Oh, I'll be very curious to know how that one turns out for you, I'll have an idea of what mine might be like in a few years. I'm hoping at least some of mine inherit the precociousness of Thomasville. With Thomasville being mostly nucellar, but with one fully zygotic parent (I assume, given the kumquat side), my guess is that half of the clementine x Thomasville crosses will be zygotic. If I'm really, really lucky, some of those zygotic ones will also be fairly sweet.

The only Marumi I've tried were under ripe fruit set during a summer flush. Even then, they were nice, if sour and underdeveloped. I'm expecting it to be zygotic but I don't know for sure if it will be.

Most of these crosses aren't going to be sufficiently hardy even in my warmer zone. My expectation is on the F2 generation or on a backcross they'll start to have decent hardiness.

Till

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Batumi Citrumelo tastes good. It is not very bitter and has no Poncirus flavours. Hardiness is said to be not very good, however.

African Shadock x Poncirus bears fruits of Navel Orange size and the fruits grow fast. Ripens partly in late autumn and partly the next spring. It grows well. Unfortunatelly, the fruits taste awsome. Very bitter and with resinous smell. Seeds seem to be largely nucellar but sometimes you get a zygotic one.

Swingle 5 Star was never my favourite in taste. I had my own fruits and got some from Ilya. All very bitter. But a surprise came this year. A Swingle 5 Star mutation (outwardly just Swingle 5 Star) from Ilya bore fruits that were not very bitter and quite good. I had a Swingle 5 Star seedling which I believed to be nucellar bearing fruit at the same time. The taste was just like Ilya's mutation, i. e. quite good. Now I do not know what I should think. Has my taste changed or are the fruits better? The latter will be true since my  wife found the fruits also ok. Conclusion: Swingle 5 Star can be pretty good.

I have another Citrumelo labbeled with the strange name "Yuma Gwange x Poncirus Changsha Citrandarin". Obviously a mislabeling supposedly from handwritten "Yuma Citrange" and "Poncirus x Changsha Citrandarin" belonging to the next line in the catalogue. This citrumelo is similar to Swingle 5 Star, grows well and has fruits with a high percentage of zygotic seeds (sometimes over 50%). Fruits are very aromatic but with too many unfavourable tastes. It has set hybrids with Morton, Sucrena and other varieties. If it is indeed the so called "Yuma Citrange" you would have it in America. I would recomment it for breeding because of its moderate acidity and complex aroma. For fresh consumation it is not suitable.

Zitrusgaertner

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Swingle 5 Star was never my favourite in taste. I had my own fruits and got some from Ilya. All very bitter. But a surprise came this year. A Swingle 5 Star mutation (outwardly just Swingle 5 Star) from Ilya bore fruits that were not very bitter and quite good. I had a Swingle 5 Star seedling which I believed to be nucellar bearing fruit at the same time. The taste was just like Ilya's mutation, i. e. quite good. Now I do not know what I should think. Has my taste changed or are the fruits better? The latter will be true since my  wife found the fruits also ok. Conclusion: Swingle 5 Star can be pretty good.


Citrumelo 5* can be very good if you store it for a while after picking the fruits. I squeezed fresh fruits and they were not very juicy but from stored fruit you can get quite an amount of grapefruit-like juice wihout resin and poncirus bitterness. It resembles quite exact the juice of white grapefruit. Just dilute with water 1:1 and enjoy.

Curiousgardener23

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Hi Till, for the African Shadock x Poncirus, by "ripens partly in late autumn" do you mean that all of the fruit partially ripen or that some ripen and some do not? Also, how acidic is the fruit when ripe?

Till

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I meant part of the fruits ripen before winter part (the majority) in the next year. The plant has a very good growth power and fruits quickly get big. That is similar to pure pumelo (at least Chandler). So they are as big as a big orange now. But the time of ripeneness is then mostly later - also like pure pumelo.

The juice is pretty sour. I cannot measure it. But I think a Lemon is more sour.

I have now tasted the following Poncirus hybrids: Morton, Dunstan Citrumelo, Swingle 5 Star, Swingle 5 Star Mutation (faster growing, fruits a bit sweeter or ealier ripe), Batumi Citrumelo, C35, African Shadock x Poncirus, HRS899 Q/O, PT#7, and the mislabeled Citrumelo (Yuma Citrange?). My overall impression is that sweetness / low acids is not strictly recessive. All these hybrids are sour but less sour than Poncirus. Morton is even so sweet and low in acids that it is like a sourer sweet orange.

kumin

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I have minimal experience with 852 Citrandarin, considerable more with both Bishop and 1279. Bishop is expected to likely be an F² self pollinated seedling of 852, but there's no certainty of it. 1279 is an F¹ hybrid of likely, similar ancestry. 1279 fruits are smaller than Bishop, the 1279 flowers exhibit a pinkish blush,  which I haven't detected in Bishop flowers. The 2 trees are nearly indistinguishable, with Bishop foliage perhaps being a deeper green.
1279 hasn't proven to be quite as hardy as Bishop. This be be due to F¹ Poncirus hybrids being heterozygous for Poncirus derived hardiness genes. In the F² generation the percentage may be more variable, with deviation in either direction.

 

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