Author Topic: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness  (Read 23440 times)

Mulberry0126

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Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« on: February 19, 2025, 01:40:11 PM »
Hi everyone,
After completing so many hardy citrus taste tests this season, I compiled my ratings and compared it to the approximate hardiness of these varieties. The numbers for hardiness I used are not exact, but estimates based on my personal experience, as well as the experience of others that I have read. It only got down to 10F so far this Winter, so I can only confirm up to that point, and how good our plants look after experiencing these temperatures with full wind and sun exposure.

The results were pretty similar to what you might imagine, here's some averages based on hardiness:
-15F = average score of 28.8/100
-10F = average score of 27.7/100
0F = average score of 45.6/100
5F = average score of 59.3/100
10F = average score of 76.6/100
15F = average score of 84.7/100

It's important to note the ranges too - at 0 and 5F, the difference between the lowest and highest scores was 34.5 and 28.5, while it was <10 for all other hardiness groups. I didn't go super in-depth with statistical tests, but you can tell pretty easily what data is significant to us. I did remove Prague from the average and range calculations because it skews the results; this information is intended to be more valuable from a breeding perspective, since chimeras may possess unusually good hardiness despite having high-quality fruit.

From my interpretation, it seems there is a reasonable amount of potential for breeding fairly good fruit in the 0 to 5F range.  I don't see dessert-quality fruit as a reasonable expectation, but fruit can still be fairly useful and good-tasting to some. The highest scores in these ranges were 60.5 for 0F and 68 for 5F. Considering an Owari Satsuma scores a 90.5, scoring in the 60s is not bad, especially for acid citrus intended to be used for processing/cooking, not fresh consumption.

Our options are more limited in the sub-zero ranges, with Poncirus plus ranking the highest (32.5), followed by the Conestoga selections, and likely other extremely hardy F2 hybrids. Some Citrandarins/Citradia might be hardy a little below zero but it's still uncertain. 75% trifoliate hybrids might also stand a chance.

Keep in mind that this is only based on my own taste tests which are done as objectively as possible, but are still subject to my personal biases. A lot of guesswork is involved in all of this, but we can still establish an inverse correlation between taste and hardiness. This correlation is not unbreakable, but there is certainly an upper limit for fruit quality depending on hardiness. With our collective efforts, we can see many of these categories improve by 5-10 points. This can be very meaningful for the sub-zero range especially - it would be like having Rusk or Swingle fruit quality on a plant that can survive in some zone 5-6s.

In my opinion, once a fruit scores 60+, it is worth growing for some sort of culinary purposes. We are warm enough to get away with many different plants hardy down to the 5-10F range but too cold for anything more sensitive than that. Even then, I prefer to have some guaranteed survivors in case we are ever hit with extreme cold that wipes out even those plants.






« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 03:09:24 PM by Mulberry0126 »

Skandiberg

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2025, 02:02:01 PM »
Nice work! Thank you for the effort you put into this!



Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2025, 02:07:12 PM »
Thank you! I will revise this chart annually as I have the opportunity to evaluate more fruit. This is based on just 35 varieties, so a larger sample size will be very helpful in improving out understanding.

Skandiberg

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2025, 02:30:00 PM »
Now just imagine what a list it will be if you keep reviewing hardy Citrus fruits for the next decade at the same rate... 😄

I can't wait to hear and see your verdict on your plants' hardiness after this winter. You have so many varieties that are/will be relevant for me.

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2025, 02:40:19 PM »
Haha, actually, I was able to make a table that described the extent of the damage on these first-year grafts so far. Pseudo Yuzu (Sacaton seedling), Dimicelli, and Keraji were eliminated from the trials before our 10F low so they were not counted.



fishie

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2025, 02:51:57 PM »
Amazing work. Are you planning on doing any breeding now based on your findings? Or will you be doing more testing first?

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2025, 03:05:11 PM »
Thank you! I will treat it as a continuous process, but yes, my own breeding and selecting efforts will certainly be influenced by my taste tests and the data I've been able to collect and analyze.
Last season I selected several promising F2 seedlings from 50% trifoliate hybrids. This season I will doing the same, as well as attempting to re-create the Thomasville Citrangequat in some form, and cross any 50% trifoliate hybrids with Yuzu, Ichang Papeda, and Kumquat/Calamondin.

Skandiberg

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2025, 04:33:40 PM »
Haha, actually, I was able to make a table that described the extent of the damage on these first-year grafts so far. Pseudo Yuzu (Sacaton seedling), Dimicelli, and Keraji were eliminated from the trials before our 10F low so they were not counted.



Dimicelli is a nasty surprise for me. Its absolute hardiness sgould be much better than that. Maybe dormancy issues? Or just the previous reports were too optimistic.

But Clemyuz is promising. If I remember well, that plant in the test row is a fairly small one. If that survives such a cold spell at all without protection, that's not bad.

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2025, 04:38:05 PM »
Larger plants would definitely survive better. I believe G's Dimicelli in Virginia Beach is much larger and it does well. Another issue is Dimicelli seems zygotic to an extent, so I may have a less-hardy strain ☹️
I'm very happy with our plants that did survive, they proved themselves despite their small size!

Skandiberg

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2025, 05:40:34 AM »
Yes, I also had his plant on my mind. And other blogs also mentioned better cold tolerance for Dimicelli. But hey, that's what trials are for.

I hope you will do a post-winter video of the trial rows when spring finally comes.


vnomonee

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2025, 11:09:39 PM »
Awesome work. I totally agree with "I don't see dessert-quality fruit as a reasonable expectation, but fruit can still be fairly useful and good-tasting to some... once a fruit scores 60+, it is worth growing for some sort of culinary purposes." Looking at you, Yuzu, you would definitely score higher if served in a different form ;D

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2025, 05:08:12 AM »
Awesome work. I totally agree with "I don't see dessert-quality fruit as a reasonable expectation, but fruit can still be fairly useful and good-tasting to some... once a fruit scores 60+, it is worth growing for some sort of culinary purposes." Looking at you, Yuzu, you would definitely score higher if served in a different form ;D

Thank you! Yuzu is a great example, which was very hardy for us this Winter, shrugging off 10 degrees as a first year grafted plant. Not everyone is fond of the fresh fruit but I think everyone can agree that Yuzu makes wonderful preserves, flavoring, etc. One of my favorite uses for it is the Korean tea that's made from the fruit and honey.

tedburn

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2025, 08:59:36 AM »
Interesting chart, I miss Bloomsweetpomelo  ;)

manfromyard

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2025, 10:04:33 AM »
Great job. It's very nice to see all the ratings along with hardiness. I also have found after trying some Japanese hardy citrus that Thomasville holds its own with Sudachi, Yuzu, etc. It's just not as hyped

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2025, 10:52:07 AM »
Interesting chart, I miss Bloomsweetpomelo  ;)

Haha, I'm not sure Bloomsweet can survive out here with the rest, but I will grow one in our unheated greenhouse soon enough!

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2025, 10:54:04 AM »
Great job. It's very nice to see all the ratings along with hardiness. I also have found after trying some Japanese hardy citrus that Thomasville holds its own with Sudachi, Yuzu, etc. It's just not as hyped

Thank you! There's a lot of different information all around but hopefully this helps consolidate some of it. Thomasville definitely deserves some credit, if it ripened earlier it would be even better.

a_Vivaldi

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2025, 08:40:21 AM »
While Thomasville is very hardy and very high quality, I will say mine took an enormous amount of damage from temperatures in the low teens. It was a smaller plant, first year in ground, and I had let it fruit which I usually don't do with small plants. But it bloomed so much I just had to let some fruit stay. That ended up costing a lot of hardiness I think.

Bloomsweet I've been protecting this winter. From what I can tell, it's maybe similar to a satsuma in hardiness, but don't take my word on that.


bussone

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2025, 03:32:20 PM »
While Thomasville is very hardy and very high quality, I will say mine took an enormous amount of damage from temperatures in the low teens. It was a smaller plant, first year in ground, and I had let it fruit which I usually don't do with small plants. But it bloomed so much I just had to let some fruit stay. That ended up costing a lot of hardiness I think.

Bloomsweet I've been protecting this winter. From what I can tell, it's maybe similar to a satsuma in hardiness, but don't take my word on that.

I peeked under my frost cloth and my Thomasville was looking a little crispy. We'll see how it does in spring. It hasn't been excessively cold this winter (although it did get down to a bit under 7F), but it has been a longer and more sustainably-cold winter than we've had in a long time. (We were consistently under freezing most days since about New Year; it's really only breaking this week. I've had some years when my roses were budding out by Valentine's Day and the grass was growing by the end of February)

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2025, 09:07:24 PM »
Bloomsweet is definitely on the list for our unheated greenhouse. Our grafted Thomasvilles only wanted to fruit and didn't grow as much as would have been ideal for such a cold Winter being their first. I grafted some seedlings Thomasville in hopes they can thicken up more since they will be focused on vegetative growth first.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2025, 10:41:41 PM »
Bloomsweet is definitely on the list for our unheated greenhouse.
My Bloomsweet in the PNW zone 8a did not seem to be able to survive, despite an optimal spot and light protection. Outside temperature went down to 12 to 14 F.

I also had a small Yuzu bush that was partially killed back and the next year was not able to recover and finally died, exposed to a temperature of 12 F even though it was more than half buried by snow. It's possible in the PNW they are not able to tolerate temperatures that drop as low, I do not know. But I do have another very small Yuzu plant that has been surviving, but growing very slowly, after going through a damaging cold winter three years ago. It seems it will take a long time for it to recover.

If I had been in zone 8b, I have no doubt the Bloomsweet would have been able to do well.

Yuzu definitely can grow around here in built-up high density suburban areas in ideal spots that are very protected from wind, but I think the conditions have to be very optimal.

As for an unheated greenhouse, it's been my experience that the inside of a greenhouse might only be 2 or 3 degrees warmer than the outside at night, even though it will completely block out the wind, which can help. A greenhouse might even not help at all, because if it gets very warm inside during the day, it can cause the plants to come out of dormancy making them more vulnerable later in the early morning when the temperatures may dip. Probably best to keep the greenhouse well vented until the time of the year when there is no risk temperatures could be dipping to below 16 F., which might be around February 20. Many containers of water stacked up close to the plants may also help, to help moderate the temperature between day and night.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2025, 10:57:28 PM by SoCal2warm »

Mulberry0126

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2025, 09:21:35 AM »
Bloomsweet is definitely on the list for our unheated greenhouse.
My Bloomsweet in the PNW zone 8a did not seem to be able to survive, despite an optimal spot and light protection. Outside temperature went down to 12 to 14 F.

I also had a small Yuzu bush that was partially killed back and the next year was not able to recover and finally died, exposed to a temperature of 12 F even though it was more than half buried by snow. It's possible in the PNW they are not able to tolerate temperatures that drop as low, I do not know. But I do have another very small Yuzu plant that has been surviving, but growing very slowly, after going through a damaging cold winter three years ago. It seems it will take a long time for it to recover.

If I had been in zone 8b, I have no doubt the Bloomsweet would have been able to do well.

Yuzu definitely can grow around here in built-up high density suburban areas in ideal spots that are very protected from wind, but I think the conditions have to be very optimal.

As for an unheated greenhouse, it's been my experience that the inside of a greenhouse might only be 2 or 3 degrees warmer than the outside at night, even though it will completely block out the wind, which can help. A greenhouse might even not help at all, because if it gets very warm inside during the day, it can cause the plants to come out of dormancy making them more vulnerable later in the early morning when the temperatures may dip. Probably best to keep the greenhouse well vented until the time of the year when there is no risk temperatures could be dipping to below 16 F., which might be around February 20. Many containers of water stacked up close to the plants may also help, to help moderate the temperature between day and night.

Yeah we'll keep our future Bloomsweet protected, I'm not planning on having one fully outdoors.That makes sense, it seems the Northwest can be much harder on many varieties, even if they are proven hardy to lower temperatures here in the Southeast.I was happy with the performance of our small Yuzu, so I will be testing different cultivars this year and any promising seedling selections.

Ilya11

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2025, 11:39:56 AM »
I am  at 48°N   that is more to the North than Socal2warm in Olympia (47N, USDA z8b on 2023 map).
My climate is a  middle of  zone 8 approximately the same, but with a less of rainfall.
The Bloomsweet has been in the open without protection since 2018. Some leaf drop after nights of -10C (12F).   
Fruits are not abundant  and are ripe only in December, when we have  in some years the frosts of -5C that kills them.
 


« Last Edit: February 25, 2025, 12:05:11 PM by Ilya11 »
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a_Vivaldi

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2025, 08:05:30 PM »
Good to know. I'm at 35°N, also middle of zone 8, so I'm hopeful bloomsweet will do well after it's established given what you've experienced Ilya.

I had seen a few claims that it's a seedling of Hirado Buntan or something closely related. Any idea if that's true?

SoCal2warm

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2025, 12:49:33 AM »
Listening to many accounts and experiences on the internet, I am under the impression that hardy citrus seems to have more difficulty in the North American Pacific Northwest than it does in the U.S. South or in Europe at the same climate zone designation. Even though many of these places in Europe are a little further north than me.
I do not know why this is.

Changsha mandarin seems to grow very acceptably if it's near the wall of a house, and I have a Dunstan citrumelo bush that is beginning to get big and the central trunk is getting thick, maybe 2.5 cm diameter, so it's not as if it's impossible for hardy citrus to grow here. Though I'm nearly sure hardy citrus would not be able to grow in zone 7 in this region. Zone 8a seems like the very limit for the Pacific Northwest.

I even tried Ichang papeda (two separate times, from different sources) and seedlings of Ichangquat (grown out to 5 or 6 inches) and those were not able to survive outside here (but they were planted further away from the house). Interesting that my experiences seem to show Yuzu is easier to grow here than Ichang papeda, even though that shouldn't be the case and seems to go against the experiences of people in other regions.
I've noticed in this climate that for many hardy citrus varieties that are on the edge of being able to survive, they simply do not have the vigor to be able to put out new leaf growth, and gradually decline after 2 or 3 years.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2025, 12:57:30 AM by SoCal2warm »

Ilya11

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Re: Fruit Quality vs. Cold Hardiness
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2025, 03:01:41 AM »
Still, there are some success stories in PNW.
Hardy hybrids are very particular plants, a lot depends on  individual  know how.
Best regards,
                       Ilya