Grafting questions

[D-Grower]

Hello whomever can answer!

I was wondering a few things about grafting things such as plums, pear, and apples, etc. When I graft especially using the cheapo plastic grafting tape not the good buddy tape I generally fully wrap the whole scion and also cover it with something to protect it from light and our day time heat. I've saw a few people recently not covering the entire scion(using real buddy tape) but only wrapping the physical grafted area. So the scion isn't fully wrapped to keep moisture in but still appear to get success. Only generally 2 buds or so above the graft. Maybe that helps not having much to loose moisture? Also not protecting it from sun or heat with something to block it such as a paper bag or aluminum foil etc. Maybe because the whole scion isn't wrapped? Or possibly if fully wrapped or that real buddy tape isn't as bad in those conditions as that plastic film wrapping? What do y'all think about this and what are your personal thoughts?

Thanks! DG

[AngelFruits]

There is no one right way to graft trees. I find that my way of grafting is an adaptation of several ways I have seen. I have experience grafting tropicals and not stone fruit. My guess is the adaptation you are seeing is based on what cycle of growth the plants are in.

[vnomonee]

I wrap my entire scions so they don't dry out but I use parafilm on those grafts (apples, pear, etc can be grafted pretty much in late March here) and have not covered them.

I do cover if I'm grafting later when its hotter and sunnier (usually citrus) with foil so the sun doesn't cook the scion as the wrap creates a greenhouse effect.

You can use just about anything to graft with, but I suggest rubber bands to help with pressure for cleft grafts and such and then wrap over that with your plastic. 

[D-Grower]

Just did 5 pear grafts and 3 plum grafts. Getting into mid 70s during the day and 40s to 50s at night. Wrapped entirely with the real graft tape. No cover with foil or anything yet. With temps that high during the day and likely hotter into 80s within the next month should I foil them?

[D-Grower]

Guess it doesn't total matter but these were whip and tongue grafts. Usually do cleft but recently feel like whip and tongue can be better sometimes.

Anyone willing to sell some rolls of the real grafting tape?

[Galatians522]

Guess it doesn't total matter but these were whip and tongue grafts. Usually do cleft but recently feel like whip and tongue can be better sometimes.

Anyone willing to sell some rolls of the real grafting tape?

I agree about the whip and tongue it is my new favorite graft even if no one else on the forum seems to be giving it much love. It is fast with high cambium contact and good success rates for me. I also like a side/veneer graft with a tongue when the scion is smaller than the stock. I pre-wrap my scions with the cheap old budding tape and then wrap the union with flagging tape. I have not covered with foil, yet.

I also took the time to make a whip graft jig which has really sped me up. It keeps the angle exactly the same and helps make smooth cuts as I build confidence. Over 2 dozen annona grafts using the jig and all seem to be pushing so far.

[LoPresti]

I also took the time to make a whip graft jig which has really sped me up. It keeps the angle exactly the same and helps make smooth cuts as I build confidence. Over 2 dozen annona grafts using the jig and all seem to be pushing so far.
[/quote]

@Galatians522 I do many W&T grafts. Sometimes I have good days and not so great doing them but they mostly all take. But that jig is a genius ideal. Thanks for sharing that.

[booeyschewy]

We use cord or tape on graft site and then cover with a plastic bag for 21 days until new leaves sprout. I use a full bag mini greenhouse type thing for epicotyl grafts otherwise a smaller one just covering the scion and root stock trunk. This is in the humid tropics though

[D-Grower]

Guess it doesn't total matter but these were whip and tongue grafts. Usually do cleft but recently feel like whip and tongue can be better sometimes.

Anyone willing to sell some rolls of the real grafting tape?

I agree about the whip and tongue it is my new favorite graft even if no one else on the forum seems to be giving it much love. It is fast with high cambium contact and good success rates for me. I also like a side/veneer graft with a tongue when the scion is smaller than the stock. I pre-wrap my scions with the cheap old budding tape and then wrap the union with flagging tape. I have not covered with foil, yet.

I also took the time to make a whip graft jig which has really sped me up. It keeps the angle exactly the same and helps make smooth cuts as I build confidence. Over 2 dozen annona grafts using the jig and all seem to be pushing so far.

That's a really awesome tool you made there. I could see the advantage of that for sure. I'm gonna have to make one of those someday. I bet you have a real money making idea there.

[D-Grower]

We use cord or tape on graft site and then cover with a plastic bag for 21 days until new leaves sprout. I use a full bag mini greenhouse type thing for epicotyl grafts otherwise a smaller one just covering the scion and root stock trunk. This is in the humid tropics though

I once tried something similar to what you're describing for avocado grafts that weren't just straight sticks. I figured I'd tie down a baggie around them with the grafting tape to keep moisture in. It did seem to work just fine.

[vnomonee]

Don't mean to hijack your thread but I am curious about what your best grafting method is for persimmon. I have some Hachiya scions in the fridge. I want to replace a jiro fuyu so I was thinking of top working it and doing bark grafts and cleft grafts? Or should I keep some of the branches and do whip and tongue? I have never tried that graft! The jiro branches are growing in an umbrella form since I weighed the branches down, so I could potentially just graft all the sticks to those branches, would just have to keep up with pruning if any jiro buds pop out. Would much rather top work the entire tree. Could also bud around the trunk and see if any will grow, then chop the upper jiro part off? I don't want too tall of a tree either would rather bring it down.

[Alippincott]

If it it windy, be careful about using a bag. I had some stone fruit scions crack off because the wind had whipped the bag around. Also be careful about babies and toddlers. My youngest one thought it would be fun to tear one off, haha.

[D-Grower]

Don't mean to hijack your thread but I am curious about what your best grafting method is for persimmon. I have some Hachiya scions in the fridge. I want to replace a jiro fuyu so I was thinking of top working it and doing bark grafts and cleft grafts? Or should I keep some of the branches and do whip and tongue? I have never tried that graft! The jiro branches are growing in an umbrella form since I weighed the branches down, so I could potentially just graft all the sticks to those branches, would just have to keep up with pruning if any jiro buds pop out. Would much rather top work the entire tree. Could also bud around the trunk and see if any will grow, then chop the upper jiro part off? I don't want too tall of a tree either would rather bring it down.

I've only ever done cleft grafts with persimmon and was successful.  However now that I'm liking the whip and tongue now I think the potential for so much more cambium connection points would be a good idea.

[Galatians522]

That's a really awesome tool you made there. I could see the advantage of that for sure. I'm gonna have to make one of those someday. I bet you have a real money making idea there.

D, the idea is not original to me. Others have made them in the past. This just happens to be my "design." I drilled the hole in a chunk of scrap wood and cut the angle on a chop saw. I did 4 sizes from 5/16" to 1/2". Since I was freehanding the drill, the hole on the 1/2" one got off center. A drill press would have made it super easy. The 7/16" in the picture turned out great and went to a friend.

I don't have time to make a bunch for forum members due to work. But, you are welcome to mass produce and sell if you want. I think $40 each would be a fair price for the time invested in making the tool. If you made them from a hard wood like oak, that would increase the cost but it would last longer. I have a feeling you could sell quite a few at that price. When you are using it the key is to shave the scion down in several strokes. If you get greedy and try to do it in one cut the added friction will pull the scion through the jig. If you match the scion size on a straight smooth scion the cuts match almost perfectly. It does not work as well on bumpy or curved scionwood.

[Galatians522]

For thise who were interested in the dimensions of the jig, here are the approximate dimensions from my 1/2" jig. I did not really measure anything when I made it. I just eyeballed it and moved on. But for those who like dimensions, here they are.

Drill a 1/2" hole straight through the center of a 2" x 2" block of wood about 5" long. Drill as straight as possible--the angle comes from the cut. The angled cut is about a 2 x 12 pitch (2" rise in 12" for those who are not as familiar with wood working and angles). Make a mark on the side of the jig about 1/4" below the bottom of the hole (you want to make sure the end of the jig extends past the scion after it is cut). Draw the angle (2x12 pitch) on the side of the jig and cut. The total angled portion is about 3 & 1/2" long. Cut a 1 & 1/2" shelf on the back of the jig (so that you have a place to hold the scion on the jig when it is being used). The shelf cut goes through the center line of the hole (so that part of the scion sticks up above the trough of the jig and allows you to pinch it tight into the jig). Use a sharp knife to trim the top of the 1/2" hole from an "o" shape into a "u" shape and round the corners on the back of the jig if there is a sharp edge. Sand smooth and you are done!

[LoPresti]

@Galatians522 that’s so cool thanks for sharing. Btw I think the 2:12 pitch equivalent in degrees is 9.46° which if you have an iPhone can use to find that.

[SoCalGardenNut]

I cover my grafts in my front yard because it’s too hot. I use tinfoil to do that, in my back yard, I only use parafilm because some grafts are very fast, like pears, they take off in 10 days.

[AngelFruits]

Guess it doesn't total matter but these were whip and tongue grafts. Usually do cleft but recently feel like whip and tongue can be better sometimes.

Anyone willing to sell some rolls of the real grafting tape?

I agree about the whip and tongue it is my new favorite graft even if no one else on the forum seems to be giving it much love. It is fast with high cambium contact and good success rates for me. I also like a side/veneer graft with a tongue when the scion is smaller than the stock. I pre-wrap my scions with the cheap old budding tape and then wrap the union with flagging tape. I have not covered with foil, yet.

I also took the time to make a whip graft jig which has really sped me up. It keeps the angle exactly the same and helps make smooth cuts as I build confidence. Over 2 dozen annona grafts using the jig and all seem to be pushing so far.

What a nifty idea. Thanks

[D-Grower]

I did do 3 plum grafts and 5 pear grafts with the real parafilm. Did not cover the grafts with foil or anything this time. Seemed that I'm getting a 100% success rate so far. Whole scion was wrapped though with parafilm.

[GrowerA]

I did many grafting projects throughout years growing apples, pears and stone fruit trees easy and simple.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6m2w21nSps

[toehead]

Don't mean to hijack your thread but I am curious about what your best grafting method is for persimmon. I have some Hachiya scions in the fridge. I want to replace a jiro fuyu so I was thinking of top working it and doing bark grafts and cleft grafts? Or should I keep some of the branches and do whip and tongue? I have never tried that graft! The jiro branches are growing in an umbrella form since I weighed the branches down, so I could potentially just graft all the sticks to those branches, would just have to keep up with pruning if any jiro buds pop out. Would much rather top work the entire tree. Could also bud around the trunk and see if any will grow, then chop the upper jiro part off? I don't want too tall of a tree either would rather bring it down.

Wanted to throw in what i've learned about persimmon grafting to get better takes.

1) Graft in warm/hot weather with an actively growing rootstock. Temps are best when they are consistently in the mid/upper 70's.
- scion should be dormant, and 2 or three nodes long.
- wrap in parafilm

2) Use a bark graft technique with much more than the usual amount of inward pressure
- Scion should be trimmed to have a LONG contact point under the slipped bark.
- Inward pressure should be maintained: I typically use hose clamps of all things.


Until I was taught those things, I was frustrated with these trees. After, it isn't very difficult to graft at all.

[vnomonee]

Whoops made a thread before seeing this. Thanks! It's still too early to graft in that case as we will continue to dip into the mid 30s and 40s overnight this coming week. Might try next Sunday!

Don't mean to hijack your thread but I am curious about what your best grafting method is for persimmon. I have some Hachiya scions in the fridge. I want to replace a jiro fuyu so I was thinking of top working it and doing bark grafts and cleft grafts? Or should I keep some of the branches and do whip and tongue? I have never tried that graft! The jiro branches are growing in an umbrella form since I weighed the branches down, so I could potentially just graft all the sticks to those branches, would just have to keep up with pruning if any jiro buds pop out. Would much rather top work the entire tree. Could also bud around the trunk and see if any will grow, then chop the upper jiro part off? I don't want too tall of a tree either would rather bring it down.

Wanted to throw in what i've learned about persimmon grafting to get better takes.

1) Graft in warm/hot weather with an actively growing rootstock. Temps are best when they are consistently in the mid/upper 70's.
- scion should be dormant, and 2 or three nodes long.
- wrap in parafilm

2) Use a bark graft technique with much more than the usual amount of inward pressure
- Scion should be trimmed to have a LONG contact point under the slipped bark.
- Inward pressure should be maintained: I typically use hose clamps of all things.


Until I was taught those things, I was frustrated with these trees. After, it isn't very difficult to graft at all.