Thoughts on oryzalin experiments especially with precocious plants

[vnomonee]

This winter, while outdoor gardening stops, I’m brainstorming a series of indoor experiments using oryzalin as a safer alternative to colchicine for inducing polyploidy. I’m especially interested in seeing how different species respond, both in growth and eventual fruit quality.

Some ideas working with seeds that I have or need to source:
Hindsii kumquat (my tree died from root rot this spring)
Fast flowering trifoliate,
Afganski pomegranate,
A large-fruit pawpaw (not really precocious but I don't see polyploid pawpaw varieties in the trade)
As well as doing targeted bud treatments on my Passiflora incarnata × edulis hybrid cuttings.

My goals are to explore whether polyploid lines can give improvements like thicker foliage, increased vigor, larger fruit, or in the Passiflora hybrid potential restoration of fertility where sterility is an issue. I think these trials could lead to some unusual phenotypes, maybe even new breeding material and a good way to kill time when it's freezing out.

[a_Vivaldi]

I don't know about in the other plans but I'm Passiflora tetraploidy is useful. The flowers tend to be larger and the stems and leaves are more robust. The fruit I don't think are any bigger but it's possible the arils are a little bigger and so are more juicy.

The biggest benefit though is better fertility, especially with hybrids. Unlike Citrus, Passiflora is often not so tolerant of crosses, with high rates is partial or complete sterility in hybrids. Tetraploid hybrids are usually not as bad for infertility.

I myself recently treated some seedlings, not sure yet if the treatment worked.

[vnomonee]

Cool, would love to see the results on those seeds when you notice anything.
If you haven't seen this blog already https://gardenscientist.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/polyploid-update-fall-2014/
could be useful

[usirius]

Interesting approach; I've also studied and heard quite a bit about this. There are several studies freely available online. Gibberish and colchicine can positively contribute to the multiplication of the chromosome set, which can then partially enable the pollination of incompatible species due to unequal chromosome numbers. But where does one obtain colchicine? Well, one could collect autumn crocus and make an extract, which naturally contains colchicine, but certainly not only that... Does anyone have any experience or ideas on this?

[Walt]

Last I knew Carolina Biological Supply sold colchicine.  It is very expensive,  Oryzalin is much cheaper. last I bought some.  "oryzalin as a safer alternative to colchicine"   That is what the litterature says.  But I wonder if it is just less studied.  I think that anything that can stop cell division without stopping chromosome division should be treated as a poison.  That said, either can be safely used.  Get none on you.  If used inside, have an open window with a fan blowing out to keep any fumes from going your way.  Better still, use outside with your back to the wind.  Store it where no one can get to it, in a sealed container.

[citrange]

Some years ago I bought some Autumn Crocus bulbs (=colchicine) and mashed them up in our kitchen liquidiser. I did then get a bit scared about this having read how dangerous colchicine is, so I washed out the equipment several times and never told my wife!
Anyway, I mixed this into a seed compost and planted a load of Poncirus seeds hoping to get some variegated seedlings or other genetic modification. They were all perfectly normal, so I never tried the experiment again. Of course, I've no idea how much colchicine was actually present or how much might be needed to affect the germinating seeds.

[vnomonee]

Without some lab equipment I wouldn't try to extract it from crocus. It's toxic and also a carcinogen! It looks like repeated treatments would need to be done, not just a simple soaking.
Oryzalin is not as dangerous, but I am having trouble finding any suppliers that will ship to NJ.

Southern Ag Surflan As runs about $20 shipped for an 8oz bottle if the supplier can ship to your state.

[Ilya11]

Colchicine is an officially approved drug for the gout treatment.
link
The belief of its extremely  high toxicity for the humans is an over-exaggeration.

[tritonus]

I'm planning to do similar experiments as you vnomonee with Loquats.
Oryzalin is hard to get for regular people where I live, but luckily I know a biology professor who can order it for me.

Would I spray the aqeous solution on the apical bud of the young seedling, or submerge it?

I'm getting a microscope as well, hoping that I can observe polypoidy through stomata size increase. I think I won't manage to count chromosomes, as it looks a bit tricky for a noob like me. Does anyone have other ideas on how to determine chromosome count?

[Ahuacatl]

Other indicators are stomata size, pollen grain size and flower size.  The most useful
Is pollen grain size since it will tell you if the plant is making large polen grains and how fertile it is.

[tritonus]

Other indicators are stomata size, pollen grain size and flower size.  The most useful
Is pollen grain size since it will tell you if the plant is making large polen grains and how fertile it is.

That sounds interestig! I will try to compare pollen grain size then. Thank you for the excellent idea.
The only downside is that I would have to wait for all the specimen to flower.